According to the Patriot Nurse
“A certain bunch of pro-vaxers have decided to engage in intimidation tactics. My employer was contacted and attempts have been made to affect [sic] the loss of my job. “
Now, I’m a science writer the Patriot Nurse seemed like a good story to cover but first I’d have to find out more about her. The outrage and concern over this woman’s views were conveyed to me by health professionals and parents meant instant readership. Here, I am publishing the e-mail I sent that in no way calls for the nurse’s dismissal and is in no way intimidatory (unless long words bother you):
I am [the] science and health editor for the website Nerditorial.com.
A video uploaded to You Tube has recently been brought to my attention by a group of concerned parents and health professionals. I know that this video, strongly advising against the vaccination of young children, has been brought to your attention too. Speculation has it that the star of said video, the Patriot Nurse, is an employee at the Lisa Ross Birthing Center named Rachel Greene. In light of this could you:
- Confirm or deny whether Ms Greene is or is not the Patriot Nurse;
- If so, do you think it appropriate for your staff members to engage in an activity whereby they are publicly offering medical opinions beyond their scope of expertise on an international forum?
- Whether the Patriot Nurse’s views on vaccination coincide with policies of your birthing centre and, if not
- how will you ensure that the views of a member of your staff that are contrary to your policies and CDC recommendations are not passed on to parents at your centre and a wider audience in general?
In regards to that final point, I am located in [the UK] so, clearly, this video, the possible link to your business and the views of the Patriot Nurse have reached a global audience. I would appreciate a prompt response as I will be submitting my piece in the next few days and would not wish to in any way associate your centre with this story if you can categorically confirm that Ms Greene is not the Patriot Nurse.
Despite clearly stating that I had sent the e-mail the conspiracy-headed and rather shrill anti-vaccination voices have been hounding the Canadian nurse who wrote a point by point refutation of the Patriot nurse’s views. This can be read here, here and all about it here.
Now, that same Canadian nurse has had to put people, with heads full of wrong, right yet again and I applaud her for it:
Good morning angry supporters of The Patriot Nurse.
No one is debating your RIGHT to choose whether or not to vaccinate. But if you have the right to NOT vaccinate, then a patient – especially parents who will be giving birth to a vulnerable neonate under your care – should have the right to choose whether or not you act as their nurse.
NO one is after TPN’s job. A science writer for a legitimate science zine contacted her work to verify her identity. Which is exactly what a responsible writer does before publication – verifies a source.
Non-vaccinating nurses at other hospitals have to take isolation per-cautions(gloves, gown, mask). This is to protect them and protect the patients. Regardless of whether YOU think vaccines work – science sure thinks that they do, and the employers have a right and a duty to protect those under its care.
TPN is a sham. She states in her video that saying this comes as a great cost to her as a nurse. If she so firmly believes in her anti-vaccination rhetoric – so much so that she would post it online AND STATE THAT SHE WAS A NURSE – then she should be well aware of the potential consequences.
All of you crying “free speech” are being deceived. TPN has deleted EVERY SINGLE comment that was not entirely supportive of her. You can’t claim that her free speech is in jeopardy while she refuses that right to others.
TPN make a video. A stupid video. In which she makes very very basic scientific errors. She was called to answer to those errors on her page, on this blog, on Orac’s blog and elsewhere. She refused to do so. She is not interested in having a dialogue. She had her little diatribe and that was that. NO ONE is so special that they can make sweeping, erroneous statements without recourse.
I know that you anti-vaccination activists have a lot of other anti-vaccination friends online. But the fact of the matter is that 94% of people are still vaccinating. You’re a blip on the radar. You’re the new “trendy” thing to be against. But when it comes down to it, all but a handful of people are intelligent enough to realize that:
1) there is NOT a global conspiracy of scientists and doctors trying to poison your children
2) a few bad nurses or doctors do not discount the whole of the scientific method; nor are the opinions of a few more valid than the opinions of millions
3) researching vaccines on Google is NOT equal to going to post-secondary education for 10+ years to be a physician, pediatrician, immunologist or what have you.
TPN is not a martyr. She is a nurse who is expected to uphold the ideals and principles of her nursing organization and employer. And seeing as those things adhere to evidence-based medicine – and she doesn’t – she now has a problem. She brought it on herself. It was her choice not to vaccinate, and it their choice (and DUTY to the public) to deal with her how they see fit.
I couldn’t have put it better myself. At least now, we have verified that she is an RN and we don’t just have to take her word for it because, to be frank, when I first saw the video, I didn’t believe a real nurse would put her job on the line like that.
I turned away from the patriot nurseand missed all this earlier this week!
Well done, Autismum!
Also, well done at ShotOfPrevention…
Why so hostel? If you truly believe parents that choose to delay vaccination or do not vaccinate altogether, who want the best for their children and their health, are just uneducated idiots who are a “blip on the radar”, again, why so hostel? I am in no way “anti-vaccine”, however, I also welcome hearing the opinions of many on the subject. She clearly stated that this was her OPINION, so yes, FREE SPEECH. I watched her video, and in it she made three good points of why she will choose to not vaccinate her children 0-2. I then have the right to agree or disagree and move on. I am responsible for doing my own research and making my own decisions. Please don’t discount us all Autismum… We may only be 6%, (according to your research, which you probably googled), but many of us are educated, the majority of which have higher degrees on average than the other 94%. And, if pumping our children full of several substances, all at one time, containing known poisons, helps you sleep at night… more power to you; because that is your right. I choose to be open minded on the subject, welcoming all research being done, new daily findings being made, and will attempt to do what is best for my child and my family; because that is my right.
I started off open minded but the weight of good research in favour of vaccinating is overwhelming – there’s a ton of research against it of course by doctors who can longer practice, scientists who send their samples to labs with dubious to no quality control. I know which is more credible to me.
As for free speech – go for it. No one is trying to hinder free speech just verify certain facts. “Do your research” is the cry from the anti-vax quarter, well, not taking someone’s word for it that they are a nurse when their grasp of basic concepts such as dose-response is doing exactly that: research.
Why so “hostel”?
Last I checked, Autism Mum wasn’t a backpackers residence, nor a shlocky horror film from 6 or 7 years ago.
“I am in no way “anti-vaccine””
Yes, you are. That is one of the biggest lies that the anti vaccine movement perpetrates – “I’m not anti vaccine, I’m pro-vaccine choice!!!!”
The rest of your diatribe contradicts your claim that you are not anti vaccine.
“She clearly stated that this was her OPINION, so yes, FREE SPEECH. I watched her video, and in it she made three good points of why she will choose to not vaccinate her children 0-2.”
Yes, this is her opinion, and as a registered nurse – she should know better as she has the education. However, she uses the same tired canards spouted by every anti vaxxer on the planet, all without evidence, all without an ounce of critical thinking.
“I am responsible for doing my own research and making my own decisions.”
May I suggest you stop looking at sites such as AoA, Natural News and Whale.to for your resources/ If you claim to be so “researched”, then please, pray tell – why do you then blather about “poisons” being in vaccines:
“if pumping our children full of several substances, all at one time, containing known poisons, helps you sleep at night… more power to you”
If you had done your “research” you would then have an understanding of toxicology, and would then further understand that none of the preservatives and adjuvants found in any given vaccine is not poisonous. As the maxim goes – “The dose makes the poison”. Your claim that you have researched this topic is laughable at best as you clearly don’t have the slightest grasp on the most basic of science involved.
“but many of us are educated, the majority of which have higher degrees on average than the other 94%”
I have yet to see an educated, or even a moderately smart anti vaxer. Those few that are educated, all talk outside of their fields of expertise (Such as Viera Scheibner, who is a micro paleantologist – no training in immunology or virology, no medical training whatso-ever.). Why is it then, if anti vaxers are so “educated”, they turn to absolute quacks such as Mary Tocco (a chiropractic secretary with NO medical training at all), or Mike Adams (head of Natural News who also claims to know more about physics than Einstein, bwahahaha).
“I choose to be open minded on the subject, welcoming all research being done, new daily findings being made, and will attempt to do what is best for my child and my family; because that is my right.”
It certainly is your right. The thing is, you have to learn how to vett information that you do come across. As mentioned beofre, going to dodgy anti vax sites is not “research”, as all that is doing is bolstering your already considerable conformation biases.
If you want to do research, you have to start looking into the actual science, without burden of preconceptions. However, as with every other anti vaxer I have come across, this may prove to be an impossibility for you, just as it is for the idiotic “Patriot Nurse” (I mean, seriously, her logo is a nurse with a rifle slung across her shoulder – oxymoron much?).
Oxymoron very much indeed, sir.
Shauna – That would be “hostile”, not “hostel”
I think you should ask that question to her. She quite often shows her guns which work to kill or injure on her photos. she talks about a war which is not exist between muslims and christians, she shows muslim as enemies. she calls muslim God’s as “false god.” she is full of hate for all the other people than her religion. how can she really love humans and care their health??? then you are asking people who says that she is wrong about one point , why so hostile???
Anyone who lets another do their thinking for them, especially when it comes to medical issues, is a fool. Do your own research so that you are able to make informed decisions in concert with your doctors. That is unless you are Canadian or European, in which case the government will do the thinking for you.
So we are the bad people for pointing out Patriot Nurse’s errors? A simple search on PubMed reveals most of her information is just plain wrong.
By the way, even though it is on an American government webite, PubMed.gov indexes scientific literature from around the world and is also available in most countries. Those in Canada and Europe have all of that data available to them, so your comment does not make sense.
Thanks for your response. I’m not sure which comment doesn’t make sense though. I’m in the UK and spend way too much time on PubMed. I start off trying to look up something then get caught up in the “ooh! that looks interesting” frame of mind. It’s addictive!
This one from Gregory8: “That is unless you are Canadian or European, in which case the government will do the thinking for you.”
And yes, PubMed is addictive.
I should point out since I have been dealing with folks like Patriot Nurse for over a decade, I recognize where most of the misinformation comes from. Much of it was posted on UseNet, and early internet service providers forums. We were using a phone modem when I came across a much earlier version of this:
Much has not changed.
I am always amazed at those who tell us to “do your own research” when they refuse to look past a few very biased websites, and ignore the original research.
I see what you mean now. Getting very distracted by the rugby!
“Do your research” is rich when someone gets a load of poo for trying to establish whether or not their heroine de jour actually holds the qualifications she claims. They should have done that themselves.
Oh well, they always do want it both ways.
Thanks for the link btw. It’s fascinating! xx
You are welcome. The first one, “Dispelling Vaccination Myths”, was written by this guy a dozen years ago when he was in law school. It is still floating around.
I believe it is origin of the anti-vaccine canard that Japan does not vaccinate until age two (which I still encounter). Something that is easy to disprove by a simple google of “japan vaccine schedule children”, which brings up a link to the schedule in English!
You are a star! Thank you xx
Sorry Chris: Here in the USA we have choices as to doctors, treatments, insurance, and such and can make up our own minds without government intervention. Though that may be disappearing around 2014 thanks to President Obama. I would no more take medical advise from the internet than I would a petty governemnt official of some sorry excuse for a national health plan like Canada or Europe. I’ve done my best to explain it to you but I can’t understand it for you. Perhaps that’s what comes from being told what to do every moment of your life by your “Nanny State” government.
Actually, now you have made it clear. You ranted about information and research, so I responded to that.
Though I don’t think you understand that those in the UK can buy private insurance to get services not offered in the NHS.
You can buy private insurance but often the private hospitals and clinics can’t help with acute care or many types of chronic illness. People often go for it as a way of jumping queues for elective surgery
Okay, good to know.
Though there are also issues here, where access to specialists can be limited by their schedule. When he was referred to a pediatric neurologist there was a wait of over six months prior to the first appointment.
Though I should add that when our son reaches 25, he will no longer be covered under the health insurance that is a benefit of his father’s employment. Since he has a very severe heart condition, and recently spent two days in the hospital where the costs without insurance would be over $15000, something will have to be done. Open heart surgery has been suggested.
His heart condition and his learning disabilities will limit his employment. The option of leaving everyone out to fend for themselves is not very palatable.
Having been smashed up in a car crash with my husband two years ago and put back together again by the expertise of NHS staff and not being crippled with debt or the worry of who would pay for our treatments I’m extremely grateful to our “sorry excuse” NHS. It’s not perfect by any means and woefully lacking in a number of areas but I wouldn’t be without it. I support campaigns to ensure it doesn’t get privatised in the name of the meaningless choice (though you clearly do not understand the system well enough to know there is some choice built in). Antivaxers can choose doctors, not on their expertise or experience, but on how easily they bend to your wrong-headed whims. I couldn’t trust a person like that with my or my family’s health.
Dear Autismum: I’m not an anti-vaxer nor am I totally against a NHS. Some sort of hybrid would be better than an either/or system. I retired well enough to have my own private insurance policy, but it’s primarily because I’m not taxed silly to pay for a gigantic NHS that the Canadians and Europeans are forced to pay. And yes, I’m very familiar with a bureacratic health care system. I served in the U.S. military and for GIs it is a NHS. The upside is that I got the same great care for free that I’m sure your NHS provides. The down side was the long waits for anything that wasn’t an emergency service. Because it was free, everyone with a bug bite, a hangnail, or the sniffles would clog the offices for days and even weeks. Too liberal a service (free) invites abuse. Our system is flawed and needs some adjustment, but a bloated NHS run by government flunkies is not the answer either.
I agree. Emergency care is where the NHS excells itself. I think the NHS would be best taken out of the hands of politicians who use it to garner popularity and votes – unpopular decisions can be the best decisions sometimes. Privatisation, however, would, I believe, lead to a reduction in quality of care especially at the acute end. I’m not sure what the way forward is, all I know is I haven’t heard it yet.
Thank you for your comment xx
the plan fact is that when you go on the internet to locate info on anything you can search until you find the answer that you are looking for. go to one site it tells you one thing, go to another site it tells you just the oppsite, go to another and it tells you something different. i have had drs. to tell me not to immunize my child, i have had drs. to tell me to do it. i personally know people that were vac. and had reactions that caused the diease they were supposed to prevent. so i think that it should be up to the person wheather or not to get vac. or not. i happen to like TPN so i watch her, if you disagree with her or don’t like what she says by all means don’t watch her.
Lies like the TPN’s need to be countered. Yes there is all sorts of info on the internet and there are people as credulous as you that think it is all valid. Whether or not vaccines work and are worthwhile is not a matter of opinion but of evidence and the choice of whether or not to receive vaccines has ramifications beyond the individual.
Wow, what a hateful group of people who are involved in this blog. Perhaps you should grow up and stop the petty, juvenile, catty personal attacks, and try supporting your beliefs with fact or studies. Disagreement is fine, but much more productive when those who disagree can act mature and use communication skills of a higher level than high school.
Ooh, get you. Look around the blog. You’ll find more facts in one post than you will in all the antivax screeds put together. If you want to fling insults try something less juvenile than “you’re juvenile.” It’s tedious and lacks imagination.
You are ignorant to believe that your email to the patriot nurses’ employer was a benign inquiry. I personally believe that you should have the crap sued out of you for defamation. I say this as a nurse and someone who is a total supporter of vaccines. Youtube is a forum for a freedom of expression and OPINION, of which Rachel Greene participated in. You had no right or reason to contact her employer for more information about things she was posting on her personal time. I am under no inclination to believe that you are dimwitted enough not realize what attack your email was on Ms. Greene. Medicine is an art with a lot of science attached to it, not the other way around. The problem with evidence based practice is that sometimes there are several evidence based ways to solve one issue and since a person’s physiology does differ from one person to the next it is NEVER a good idea to live in a world of absolutes, especially in medicine. But my issue with you is not so much that you vehemently disagree with the patriot nurse, because I do too, but that you took it upon yourself to attempt to verify her alias through her employer. If she had wanted anyone to know who she was or where she worked she would have said so. Youtube is not a valid source of information, whatever her claims where about herself she never needed validation because the site it’s self is not a valid source of information. You are trying to compare Ms. Greene’s channel to the standards of The New York Times or your local news channel and that is just absurd. Information got through Youtube is similar to winkipedia, since anyone can get on there and post anything they want on it you should tread carefully, check the sources listed….and if there aren’t any be worried, read opposing views, and then decide how much you trust the information. But you would never, never, ever list winkipedia as a source for one of your articles, would you? So how do you justify sending a VERY intimidating email, an email that questions the employer’s ability to hire or appropriately supervise their employees, to a person’s employer because you don’t like their medical OPINION stated on an internet site that has no credibility what so ever? Is it because she’s a nurse? What just because she’s a nurse she shouldn’t have a medical opinion that is not in line with the popular current scientific school of thought? Holistic medicine is not in line with the current medical school of thought, but there is evidence to support that some of it works. There are, in fact, studies that prove vaccination IS bad. Now these studies, to me, are just as believable as the ‘evidence’ Christian scientist try to present to the world to prove creationism is real, but none the less it is some sort of evidence. We practice evidence based medicine, not scientific based medicine….I know it seems like the two are interchangeable but they are not. Also I must let you know that it is NOT uncommon for nurses to preach to the patients what they are ordered to by the physician and their hospital instead of telling their patients what they ‘really think’. In fact I would say this occurs quite frequently and your accusation that Ms. Greene might be preaching her personal views to the patient’s was way out of line. You got a woman fired for informing the public of her FREE OPINION. THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN WHAT YOU DID TO DAMAGE THE IDEA OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH. CAN YOU IMAGINE A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE ARE TO AFRAID TO SHARE THEIR OPINION BECAUSE THEY MAY LOSE THEIR ONLY SOURCE OF INCOME??????? If you were doing what you said, and merely trying to confirm your suspicions as to who the Patriot Nurse was your email would have gone like this:
I am [the] science and health editor for the website Nerditorial.com. I am trying to identify the credentials of an nurse who has an advice channel on Youtube. The poster goes by the name The Patriot Nurse. I believe Rachel Greene is the nurse that I suspect is the poster of these videos. Do you know if Rachel Greene is in fact The Patriot Nurse? If so my I would also like to verify her nursing credentials, experience, and what her responsibilities are at your facility.
THAT is an unintimidating (which is more appropriate that non intimatory) letter of inquiry. And once you got that information then you could have ripped her, and her alone, apart on any post you wanted to, hell I wouldn’t mind if you even mentioned that she worked at a birthing center as long as you didn’t mention which one.
What you did to this nurse was inexcusable, I wish you lived in the US because Ms. Greene would have all sorts of grounds to sue you to kingdom come and you deserve it.
Intimidating my arse
I’m not that much of a online reader to be honest but your sites really nice, keep
it up! I’ll go ahead and bookmark your site to come back down the
Hi there, I check your new stuff daily. Your witing style is witty, keep up the good work!
It’s interesting to read the comparisons between the US and Britain re health care. I’m going to throw Australia into the mix – where we have both public and private health. The public system is covered by the Medicare levy (not to be confused with the US version of Medicare) which is paid at tax time. But we also have a much larger private sector than Britain and it does okay. I would like to think that Obamacare is an attempt to imitate Australia’s health system.
Just off to the side, Autismum – I’m in the process of getting the ultimate deterrent for the anti vaxxers started. The publication in a reputable scientific journal that debunks those precious reports (all 72 of them per the Canary Party) in their content rather than attacking the creators (that won’t work – even with the Geiers in that report list). The idiots will keep yapping of course because they are too dumb to know any better, but if we can sway everyone else our way they’ll find themselves with massively reduced social networks and a right hook to their ego.
As long as you keep your (unvaccinated kids) out of the public, especially schools where they (and mostly you) are endangering other kids/people, fine. But since you won’t, then YES WE ARE HOSTILE to your arrogant endangering of others.