First, an apology to Ms Kerri Rivera who presented on treating autism with Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) – that’s bleach to you and I – at this year’s AutismOne conference. Her reply to my open letter was, in fact, astonishingly prompt despite my earlier grumblings. I sent her an e-mail copy with a link to this site. It had been languishing in my “outbox” with several other e-mails I thought had reached their cyber destinations. Not entirely sure what happened there but most likely Pwdin pulled the plug on the WiFi doo-dah.
Ms Rivera’s reply was brief to say the least and here it is in full.
You have your science all wrong. The websites that you site are incorrect. I wish you and your son all the best. Wonderful hearing your opinion. Everyone has one be it informed or misinformed.
Kerri
She has ignored the most important question I posed, “…why in holy hell would I want to give my UK dwelling, 46lb, four year old bleach to drink, or worse still, force bleach enemas upon him?” Her facile response amounts to saying to me “your dictionary is wrong.” The websites I cited were in relation to defining the terms “ pathogen” and “toxin.” I know I can be pedantic but Ms Rivera has her own, loose, definition of these terms. She takes them to mean whatever agents or even phantom parasites she can use to dupe individuals into buying MMS or visiting her Mexico clinic to combat. Her level of argument is indicative of the level of science behind MMS – what Jim Humble calls a miracle anyone else would call bleach. What any right minded person would call child abuse, Kerri Rivera calls “treatment.” Not only are the MMS loons distorting what they see as science but they are mangling language to justify – and here’s that word again – abuse.
“You have your science all wrong. ” Ms Rivera protests but, frankly, I don’t have a science. I’ve looked in all the places I might keep it and it’s not under the bed, in the fridge or on a high shelf out of the Pwdin’s reach. Science doesn’t belong to anyone and it’s certainly not the maleable object the MMS brigade believe they have in their hands; perhaps, they are confusing science with the brains of the perfectly primed and credulous audiences who lap up the pseudoscience at talks given by the likes of the Rivera woman.
I have sent Ms Rivera a response seeking her clarification. It reads as follows:
Ms Rivera,
Thank you for your prompt reply.
You contend the websites I cite have incorrect definitions of “pathogen” and “toxin.” What do you believe to be their correct meaning? I have never heard of an element or a compound being described as a pathogen and have only heard them described as toxins by people trying to convince me that they can and do cause autism when found in vaccines. Needless to say, I have yet to be convinced that this is plausible.
If my science, is, as you protest, incorrect could you tell me whose is not in error?
Your wishes for my son are appreciated and I thank you for them. I also send you my best wishes and hope that you will soon stop advocating the abuse of autistic children.
Now, after the last one, I checked and this is definitely in my sent box. Ms Rivera has not yet replied.
Sign the petition
It takes less than a minute to add your name.
http://www.change.org/petitions/no-bleach-enemas-to-cure-autism-in-children
Autismum 
You have your science all wrong! Really? I should be holding it up by the hind leg rather…? Maybe she refers to elemental pathogens. Or… Nope, I got nothing. Must be all bleached out. It’s a miracle. Or not…
I asked a question. It didn’t get answered. Apparently why kids should have bleach forced into them isn’t a question Ms Rivera feels she should address.
She can’t answer. Her “science” would get her failing marks in freshman chemistry.
Seriously, her “sciency” sounding talk is nonsense.
Really, I wonder what proponents of this “treatment” believe the pathogens they bleat on about to be made of or is it that they think bleach is somehow intelligent? I’m baffled and disgusted in equal measure.
I loved your “open letter” to Ms.Rivera. The alternative TO medicine crowd love to blame the cause of just about anything and everything on toxins and parasites. I suppose it was just a question of time before they got around to blaming autism on them too.
I must say my stomach turned when I first heard about this horribly misguided woman and her bleach (MMS) cure being forced on helpless children.I would love to see her step across the boarder and try to peddle her snake oil here.
Thank you for helping to get the word out. All rational, thinking people would be appalled at this despicable scam being perpetrated on defenseless children by parents who don’t know any better and are taken in by this woman’s pseudoscience.
Thank you. Unfortunately, from what I have heard, Ms Rivera is being booked up for more autism conferences.
I am surprised to say the least that MMS is still confused with bleach when the chemical formulation does disprove this fact. I know bleach is poisoning and if I had taken bleach daily in much higher doses then most consumer do take I would not be able to write this, but I feel better than ever. No need to explain all the details here if the minds are so closed. I wonder if this will be posted here in the first place or just deleted like so many comments I posted on other sites. MMS works with me and my children, my parents, a friend with Malaria was well within half a day and cured Alzheimer of a dear friend who is old but can play cards again and have conversations and many more stories that I know first hand off. But maybe your experience is a different one assuming you must have tried it since you talk about it. Big pharma actually does have patented versions similar to MMS but they don’t sell it because the profit margin would be too low, I work for big pharma. The only thing I would wish for is that people criticizing would know what they are doing because you can prevent someone here from getting cured. This is addressed to all not only the person named “autismum”.
Patrick, MMS is an industrial bleach. There’s no getting around the chemistry of it.
Conventional Dermatologist prescribe bleach baths for kids with various conditions.
MMS is NOT the same as household bleach.
Oh please
Have any antivaccine or biomed organizations denounced this “bleach cure” travesty? Age of Autism? The Canary Party? I haven’t seen any and I’m guessing not, but just wondered if anyone else had seen even cursory skepticism about this amongst MMS’s target demographic.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
I’ve seen the odd post or comment of Facebook but nothing more really and many parents in autism groups who have tried alt med have said this is too much. Most of the anti-vax groups are pretty incestuous (metaphorically speaking) so one will rarely criticize another.
Very well done for calling this person out. I didn’t know people were even advocating MMS for autism, the depths these people go to still amazes me.
I’ve done a lot of research on the subject including looking into the supposed creator of MMS, Jim Humble. You can find some of my writings and links to podcasts/other articles on my blog:
http://noodlemaz.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/bleachgate-and-beyond/
Do see the Bleachgate tag for more posts
http://noodlemaz.wordpress.com/tag/bleachgate/
Thanks again and keep up the good work.
Thank you.
Tbh, I find Jim Humble really creepy.
Today at The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism:
http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.com/2012/06/dangerous-interventions-mms-and-autism.html
In addition to your points:
Thank you Liz. Ms Rivera’s not answering a very direct question is, in my opinion, a tacit acknowledgement that one cannot defend the indefensible.
“not to do so is tacit endorsement of child abuse and experimentation on children that no society should tolerate” LOL!
Please tell me your serious. I’m guessing that what our gov. and big pharma are doing with the mandated vaccine schedule is not considered experimentation on children? These vaccines have injured 3 of my immediate family and 2 of my fiances family. The FDA does not test vaccines in multiple combined doses. They test singular dose only. Why is it that Dr’s give these death cocktails in multiples of sometimes 8 or more at a time in 1 day? Common sense would tell any reasonably intelligent person that these drugs when given in multiples, are doubling times over the toxins being introduced to the developing immune system. This application of vaccination should be criminalized. Most of these vaccines only prevent diseases that are not fatal if exposed to. and being vaccinated does not guarantee immunity. The majority of outbreaks and diseases being vaccinated against can be eliminated with mega doses of vitamin C. Polio has been cured with vitamin C. Pertussis cured within 24-48 hours with vitamin C. Hepatitis(all forms) cured within 4 days with 25,000 to 60,000 mgs of vit. C per day. Read the book CURING THE INCURABLE by Thomas E Levy. Or go to http://www.doctoryourself.com to read the overwhelmingly large volume of research provided by Dr Saul on orthomolecular cures for everything imaginable. Why would I put my child at risk of DEATH to prevent something non life threatening ? Its healthy for a child to allow there immune system to be exposed to most of these pathogens to build natural immunity. Read the book THE VACCINE EPIDEMIC and look at the flawed, manipulated, disgusting so called science on vaccine safety. Any parent that can bash another parent for not subjecting there children to these deadly vaccines should be shunned by society and made to research both sides of the debate because any open minded person that is subjected to the truth and unbiased research of the damage caused by these vaccines and the clear lack of safety involved with them, would have to except the truth and from there start questioning the powers that be as to why these truths are hidden and why loving parents are being demonized for researching and discovering the truth and not wanting to harm there children. Ive uncovered so much disgusting unethical behavior associated with big pharma, Dr’s, media, and state gov. involved with the money exchanging hands and the appointing of FDA positions from handfuls of ex big pharma or still on board big pharma employees that There should be a sweeping of government and prosecution of these entity’s involved with this sham. How can the FDA implement safety practices when they are involved with distorting data and hiding death and damage and have financial ties with the big pharma company’s. It sickens me to see these people who know nothing about whats really going on behind the scenes to try and debate this subject. They are clearly riding coattails and have done -0- research on the topic or if they have researched the topic it isn’t on both sides of the debate. They only look at the misleading reports and fraudulent claims presented by the vaccine pushers. This is what Germany did and Hitler was shunned for it but we accept it as healthy or as science. Please become more knowledgeable about the debate before commenting and fueling the death and harming of our children!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look up “concomitant studies”, come back and admit your foolishness and I might read the rest of your wall of text…maybe.
I see that my posts are being screened and not posted when I include evidence of my being right. It is a shame to pick and choose posts.
All first posts are screened. This blog is a one woman show and this woman has had her hands full. Thank you for your patience.
“I see that my posts are being screened and not posted when I include evidence of my being right. It is a shame to pick and choose posts.”
Evidence that you are right? I guess I missed that evidence. Conspiracy theories are not evidence.
“The majority of outbreaks and diseases being vaccinated against can be eliminated with mega doses of vitamin C. Polio has been cured with vitamin C. Pertussis cured within 24-48 hours with vitamin C. Hepatitis(all forms) cured within 4 days with 25,000 to 60,000 mgs of vit. C per day.”
Several expert teams have examined the claims of “orthomolecular medicine” proponents and concluded that they are unsubstantiated. Diseases like Polio, smallpox, diptheria, meningitis etc. are NOT caused by any vitamin deficiency. They are caused by pathogens.Therefore giving massive doses of vitamins isn’t going to be of any benefit what so ever.
You also make the claim that polio, pertussis,, and hepatitis have been cured with vitamin C. Do you have any real science to back that up? Or is it all anecdotal?
And more conversation at TPGA’s Facebook page:
It’s nearly bed time but I’ll pop over for a little look. Thanks for all the links xx
This is just sick. Once you’re convinced that you’ve seen the most evil, twisted sort of acts that Mankind can muster…bleach enemas. On autistic children. Yeah.
Perhaps more evil still is the fact that they’ve yet to be shut down.
Please add your name to the petition. Let’s see if we can all do something about this.
You are misinformed. MMS is not bleach, and Autisim is misnamed. There are over 40 children cured.
Sodium chlorite*, NaClO2 is bleach. Bleach, bleach, bleach. bleach. BLEACH.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chlorite
How about how a manufacturer of the stuff for industrial use describes it:
http://www.sy-sodium-chlorite.com/products_detail.aspx?id=397
“Application:
It is mainly used to produce Chlorine dioxide disinfectant, or to bleach pure cotton, flax, fiber, oils and pulps, surface treatment of metal and bactericide of water”
Want more?
http://dyeingworld1.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/bleaching-with-sodium-chlorite.html
Not my most eloquent response but really, how do I get through to someone who thinks it is ok to force BLEACH into autistic children?
“Autisim is misnamed.” Yes I believe it is called autism.
“Over 40 children cured.” Forty isn’t too high a number so let’s have precise figures on that. Let’s have some details. Let’s have a bit of science.
You’re the second person to tell me I’m misinformed without offering any substantive information to back up that claim. Let’s see “your” science. I’ve shown you mine, show me your’s.
* corrected from soduim hydroxide
actually, Sodium Hydroxide is NaOH – caustic soda (we use that to blitz clogged drains). I wonder what the “caustic” stands for, mhhh
note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide
On July 30, 2010 and again on October 1, 2010, the United States Food and Drug Administration warned against the use of the product “Miracle Mineral Supplement” or “MMS”, which when made up according to instructions produces chlorine dioxide. MMS has been marketed as a treatment for a variety of conditions, including HIV, cancer, and acne. The FDA warning informed consumers that this industrial bleach can cause serious harm to health, including severe dehydration, nausea and diarrhea.[24] There have been no reported deaths from use of MMS; however the FDA has received numerous reports of nausea, severe vomiting, and life-threatening low blood pressure caused by dehydration.[25]
Regardless how many times you say it, it does not make it so.
NaCl – Sodium Chloride – Table Salt
NaClO – Sodium Hypochlorite – Bleach
NaClO2 – Sodium Chlorite – “Stabilized Oxygen” (3.5% sodium chlorite)
MMS = Sodium Chlorite(28%)+ citric acid = Chlorine DiOxide (-)
I followed your ‘wiki’ link and nowhere does it say that it is a bleach. It also say that Sodium Chlorite is approved by the FDA for washing of food!
Perceptions change with education. The world was believed to be flat at one time. Why is a contrary opinion so threatening? Time will tell!
was the world believed to be flat? When and by whom? Have you read more comments on this post? Chemically, what is a bleach? Do you understand the concept of dilution or even rinsing? I know that I am posing a lot of questions but I am trying – really I am – to understand how anyone capable of reading and writing and using a computer can be so dense. I look forward to your response.
“The product, when used as directed, produces an industrial bleach that can cause serious harm to health.” http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm
Please provide scientific evidence of your statement that 1) autism is misnamed (hint – autism is not mercury poisoning, or parasites), and 2) that anyone has been cured of anything using industrial bleach.
MMS is not bleach….right. It’s just made from one type of bleach and the process makes another type of bleach.
No, you are misinformed. Autism has no cure, yet, so any child no showing autistic symptoms may either have never had it to begin with, or they’ve just been poisoned into a state of docile sickness. Anything that calls itself a “Miracle” is a wonder to me – if something works, then what exactly makes it a miracle? MMS is a chlorine bleach that is used as a disinfectant. Those children aren’t being cured of anything, they’re being murdered.
I’m sure that “autisim” is misnamed. But “autism” is not. and if there was a PROVEN cure for autism, Autism Speaks would have found a way to sell it by now.
Today JoslynGray published “What autistics think about the bleach ‘treatment’ ” at Strollerderby
http://blogs.babble.com/strollerderby/2012/06/07/in-their-own-words-adults-on-the-autism-spectrum-speak-about-bleach-treatment/?pid=8517#slideshow
The sodium hypocholorite as used in the MMS protocol would hardly qualify as “bleach”. It is so diluted it would not “whiten” anything. It is used in a therapeutic dose.
The image of “bleach” being forcibly injected into a child is certainly horrifying. This is not the case here at all ! To believe so is to be truly ignorant.
Ms. Rivera is one of a group of proactive moms who are dedicating their life to helping their children. HELPING their children. They are intelligent and proactive. If they promote a particular therapy or protocol, it is beause they have found it to be beneficial.There should be a truly scientific assessment of MMS. To date there hasn’t been. But that does not mean it is not effective or helpful.
Dilute acid is still acid, dilute bleach is still bleach.
Not once have I said MMS is injected but you and I both know children are being given this bleach -yes, that’s what it is – to drink or having enemas with it. How repulsive and degrading. This stuff has no proven benefit and only anecdote to back it up. I echo and agree with those who state any parent who would do this to their child is not a safe parent.
You say “There should be a truly scientific assessment of MMS. To date there hasn’t been” and yet the oh so intelligent Ms Rivera and others she has duped into torturing their children promote its use. There has been no study into its efficacy because it is not a safe product to consume.
You say parents, like the Rivera woman, who are using bleach on their kids, “are dedicating their life to helping their children.” I’m crying bullshit on that one.
The enema is indeed very diluted, 3 drops in 2 litres – I’d be more worried about so much DI water in the gut than about the minute amount of bleach. However, orally, the stuff is taken straight initially… disgusting.
It’s not just that this stuff is being administered it is also how and the frequency. Giving a child repeated enemas with no good reason is assault. The risk of injury is great.
So, is dilute mercury still mercury?
Firstly, you don’t dilute mercury. Secondly, I have another question. You know that other metal, sodium, that explodes on contact with water, and as a result, will burn your flesh because you’re made mostly of water? Well, why doesn’t table salt, aka sodium chloride, do the same thing, and is in fact perfectly safe to digest?
Do you know why?
Because when you create a compound of something, you create a completely different substance with completely different properties.
Now that you’ve learned something new, why don’t you go and find out how much mercury is in vaccines. I think you’ll find the answer is absolutely NONE, zilch, nada, even the vaccines that do still contain thimerosol, because even though it’s a mercury compound, it’s still not mercury, therefore, the vaccine contains no mercury at all.
To suggest that there is no mercury in a vaccine is slightly misleading. Admittedly there is no mercury in its natural inorganic state, however there clearly IS mercury in any vaccine containing thiomersal, as to create this compound requires mercury.
The same holds true for Sodium Chloride as salt. There is still sodium present but admittedly in an altered state due to its bonding with the chlorine.
As for the safety of thiomersal, well that is still very much up for debate. It was actively removed from vaccines and now only features in some. These actions are not taken lightly by regulators.
Safety wise, Wikipedia has the following to say:
“Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[12] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.[4]
Few studies of the toxicity of thiomersal in humans have been performed. Cases have been reported of severe poisoning by accidental exposure or attempted suicide, with some fatalities.[13] Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings. The mechanisms of toxic action are unknown.”
With regards to ethyl mercury – again taken from Wikipedia – the following is stated:
“The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied – exposure standards based on methylmercury (such as those currently recommended by the United States Environmental Protection Agency) have not been demonstrated to be equivalent for ethylmercury.[3]Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-life of about 18 days in adults. Ethylmercury is eliminated from the brain in about 14 days in infant monkeys. Risk assessment for effects on the nervous system have been made by extrapolating from dose-response relationships for methylmercury.[4] Methylmercury and ethylmercury distribute to all body tissues, crossing the blood–brain barrier and the placental barrier, and ethylmercury also moves freely throughout the body.[5] Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999. Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative.[4] Though inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer half-life in the brain, at least 120 days, it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood.”
Sounds like a lot more work needs to be done to determine its safety. Interestingly it does state that inorganic mercury is metabolized from the ethyl mercury (derived from the thiomersal) is apparent in the brain! That to me sounds rather worrying having an understanding of the HUGE damage mercury can have in the brain. Although this inorganic mercury “appears” to be less toxic than inorganic mercury from mercury vapour, but “for reasons not yet understood”. Not sure this additional work to answer these questions has been done but it is certainly not something I would inject into me or my loved ones.
But we digress, as this topic is about the use of MMS. Just wanted to share.
Your grasp of chemistry is truly appalling. You do not know the difference between sodium chlorite (NaClO2) and sodium hypochlorite (NaClO). I’ll give you a clue: the latter is clorox.
Please provide links to the published scientific clinical trials of MMS in the treatment of autism. Oh, wait, you can’t. You just admitted that this hasn’t been appropriately studied, either for safety OR for efficacy.
Please provide links to the published peer-reviewed scientific evidence that using bleach in any way “helps” autistic children. Oh, wait, you can’t. All you have is biased anecdotes from desperate, vulnerable, or deluded parents who refuse to accept their child as he or she is, and subject their child to horrific abuse in order to “cure” their child.
There is no valid biological mechanism for bleach being in any way beneficial in treating autism. Autism is not mercury poisoning, or parasites, or any of the other nonsense that Rivera claims.
” They are intelligent and proactive”
But ill informed. Ms. Rivera’s grasp on chemistry and molecular physics wouldn’t get her past freshman courses.
Where is the proof that this is “helping”? Where is the proof that it even has a biological plausibility of helping?
“There should be a truly scientific assessment of MMS.”
*before* it is applied to disabled children. The problem is that one doesn’t need to go much further than her premise to see that there is no reason to use this as a therapy.
Would you drink from your toilet bowl? It only contains diluted urine and faeces, that’s hardly as bad as the real deal, is it?
mine contains dilute bleach as well. I’m going to bottle it and sell it for £25 a pop.
There is no such thing as a “therepeutic dose” of BLEACH!! NO SUCH THING! It is not approved for medical treatment, nor should it be. If they were trying to HELP their children, they’ll stop trying to treat their condition like a disease to be cured, they’ll stop calling autistic children an “epidemic” (which implies that they are unwanted due to their condition), and they’ll start learning about autism and what their childs’ emotional needs are – if they are truly as intelligent as you claim they are, they would have gone to stuff that’s already been proven to be beneficial, like CBT (look it up and start your education!)
if there have been no “truly scientific assessments” of MMS’ effectiveness, then it seems that however good their intentions, these people are using it and claiming that it works based on anecdotal evidence. As a statistics student, i can tell you that anecdotal evidence is useless in determining whether or not a treatment works. Until there have been studies that correlate MMs with measurable health benefits for autistic people (and maybe not even then, because correlation cannot prove causation, although a controlled, replicated experiment would prove causation), any defense of its alleged benefits is premature and damaging to public health.
Remember: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Speaking as an autistic person, just because you have a child with special needs does not mean that everything you say or do for them/to them is okay.
If you think Kerri Rivera’s MMS presentation at the Autism One Conference was outrageous…your going to *love this*….
There is an “alternate” petition set up by Jim Humble, up now at change.org…in response to Emily Willingham’s petition to stop Kerri Rivera’s MMS treatment for autism:
http://www.change.org/petitions/emily-willingham-stop-telling-people-that-mms-is-bleach-because-it-is-not
Thanks to all you wonderful bloggers, this dangerous *biomedical* treatment, as featured at the Autism One Conference has been publicized. We can only hope that we may dissuade some parents of children with autism, to stay clear of this dangerous abusive treatment.
Thank you Lilady.
Talk about making things personal. There are so many other people out there besides Emily Willingham who are calling MMS out for what it is. This is intimidation, not unlike the tactics used against Rhys Morgan and Noodlemaz when they campaigned to get the wretched stuff banned in the UK.
Wow, Jim Humble is a lunatic, isn’t he? Can’t stand being called out for peddling an effective and potentially dangerous substance, so intimidate the people who are doing the calling out. The man is unhinged.
I’ve flagged his libelous petition and the offensive comments about Ms Willingham and “normal” children. I hope something is done.
The following is a two part interview with Jim Humble, you will enjoy them:
http://www.talkaboutstrange.co.uk/episode-68-jim-humble/ and
and
http://www.talkaboutstrange.co.uk/episode-81-jim-humble-ii/
And yes he is unhinged.
(I am so sorry that this podcast is no longer continuing, they made it a point to talk to masters of woo in a very polite measured way, and still reveal their limitations. But one continues on the Merseyside Skeptics “Skeptics With a K” and another was just on the “Pod Delusion”… which is where I learn all about UK politics, even though I am an American)
I do love a good podcast. I have an internet crush on Mark Crislip
Didn’t see a link to contact you directly. So, I’m putting this here. I provided links to your posts on this topic today.
Thank you. My spam filter is being huffy. Got all sorts stuck in there and viagra add getting through! I’ve made some adjustments so let’s hope it helps.
Mr. Diaz: Let me get this straight. You are defending parents who experiment on their developmentally disabled children. This small subset of parents, who have not researched the deleterious effects of MMS, an industrial strength corrosive chemical ingested or forced into children’s rectums in an enema solution, are unaware that they are abusing their children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement
You do realize, don’t you, that your defense of these parents, makes you complicit in this blatant form of child abuse.
Just a few questions, Mr. Diaz. How do you justify your actions? How do you sleep at night, with the knowledge that you are supporting child abusers?
I feel dirty, just reading your posting here.
Orac has blogged about MMS again with a good dose of Respectful Insolence directed at the apologists at AoA and other anti-vaccine websites. Your efforts to contact Kerri Rivera and Rivera’s lame reply are prominently mentioned in Orac’s blog:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/11/miracle-mineral-solution-mms-and-autism-apologists-strike-back/
You are a power figure now and so welcome in our science community.
I think I’m going to use my powers on the builders who didn’t show up today.
Thanks, Lilady xx
Does Mexico have any laws relating to quack medical treatments, or is it the wild west?
I don’t think so. All of the Snake Oil salesmen and charlatans seem to eventually flee across the boarder to Mexico to peddle their wares.. Think, Hulda Clark, Gerson, Jim Humble, Hoxsly, Kerri Rivera.
Okay so now you’ve made a fool of yourself.
I saw over 15 doctors all across the United Sates and not one of the geniuses from Stanford to Mayo Clinic could figure out what was wrong with me. Dr. Hulda Clark did and saved my daughter from being an orphan at the age of thirteen.
I went from 83 pounds on my death bed with a horrible parasites infection to dispelling thousands of parasites and gaining back to 105 and talking about still being alive with my daughter. Pretty big deal for us.
You guys and your scientific studies- those that perform the million dollar scientific studies are preying on us and killing us all and your pointing a finger at this group- dah.
I just think your parasites are really afraid of dying so they have brainwashed you into not understanding the importance of getting savvy with them and getting their numbers down.
I’m not saying MMS is totally right and totally wrong but many people vote for it and that should mean something.
Yes I said savvy NOT scientific.
I have proof but not discussing in this forum that singular science is many times shear stupidity, not global logic.
“I have proof but I won’t share it with you meanies” = “I’m full of sh*t”
The two most common forms of bleach are hypochlorite commercially are sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl, and calcium hypochlorite, Ca(OCl)₂. MMS is NaCl02 (that is a sub two, wouldn’t copy correctly). It is an oxidizer that cannot harm human tissue. I think you are using the term ‘bleach’ losely because you know the connotations people have with commercial bleach when it comes to ingesting it. Your science is off. Without misinformation, you don’t have a case against MMS. If it’s safe and it works, you will actually have to consider something new for your own child! Apparently you must not want change in your life (gee, sounds a little like the rigidness of autism). For us who are willing to evolve in today’s society will be the ones who change society and make it better. Glad I’m on the MMS team.
I don’t particularly want to change my life. I have a seriously cute husband and an adorable son and a job I love. Ain’t so bad.
If I was on the spectrum I’d quite happily shout about it but you’re off base a little there.
You say you ” will be the ones who change society and make it better.” How will making people accept the abuse of disabled children make society better?
I’m off to bed. See if you can dig up something more convincing in the next 8 hours or so. At least try to find something new. Nos da.
22 hours on and nothing.
Not surprised.
But without studies of MMS- which even its supporters acknowledge don’t exist- you can’t prove that it works. Having several parents- even several hundred parents- give testimonials is not evidence, because it is still subject to many kinds of bias. Just because some people say a treatment works does not mean it actually does. They may be wrong, due to the placebo effect or even just that the MMS is causing symptoms that look temporarily like improvement, or sometimes they may even be LYING.
You seem to use the term ‘abuse’ to define something you wouldn’t chose for your child. Abuse implies harm. If MMS offers healing, no harm, your definition just doesn’t work. I reviewed your blogs. The most amazing thing about your posts is….you are always right. You know it all! There is no room to consider someone else’s point of view (even facts of chemistry 101). What else can anyone of us say if that is the case? If that is the narrow way you choose to embrace the world, so be it. Those of us who believe autism can be embraced and celebrated as well as treated, we’ll be busy helping our kids and expanding their worlds. This has already bored me. Moving on.
Whenever I read a comment by someone saying “you think you are always right”, I know I am dealing with someone who has no substantive arguments.
“(even facts of chemistry 101)”
The people promoting MMS would fail freshman chemistry. Seriously. Listen to Keri Rivera’s discussion of how bleach destroys ethyl or methyl mercury. She claims wihout any substance that the bleach removes the electron shell from the molecule. Besides not understanding ionic bonding. Besides not understanding the multiple electron shells involved. Besides not showing how this results in the mercury atom being removed from the molecule into a neutral atom (as she claims, but is false). Besides all that, she then claims that this allows the body to remove the mercury. Ignoring the fact that (a) most of the mercury in the body is stored as elemental mercury (not organic) and (b) that the half life of elemental mercury is 35 days, so this isn’t really helping to remove it. Note that she gives no data on urinary mercury concentrations after administration of the bleach.
Even the basic science is against this “therapy”.
Autumn, you wouldn’t know chemistry if the Table of Elements introduced themselves to you. Seriously.
NaClO2 is a STRONG oxidizer. It can and DOES harm tissue.
(See: Lewis, R.J., Sr (Ed.). Hawley’s Condensed Chemical Dictionary. 12th ed. New York, NY: Van Nostrand Rheinhold Co., 1993, p. 1052)
Exposure of NaClO2 to heat or sunlight will cause a reaction to produce chlorine dioxide.
Chlorine dioxide is cytotoxic (it kills cells) and mutagenic. Like NaClO2, it is a topical irritant.
You are injuring your child by giving him/her a 22.4% solution of MMS. It is ABUSE.
Abuse describes acts of deliberate harm, in this case against disabled children. This is knowingly done. You know this stuff is bleach, you know it is banned in several countries because it is not safe for consumption and yet you give it to your child. More than that you’re proud of it. You go onto the internet and boast about it.
This isn’t about a point of view. This is about science and about facts. This stuff has been shown to do harm. Autism has not been shown to be anything to do with parasites. This isn’t even about relative risk, There is harm and only harm. That, my dear, is what I term abuse.
“MMS is a 22.4% solution of sodium chlorite. ”
I don’t consider that very dilute.
Perhaps you mean that the doses given are small? If so–why do they cause adverse reactions like nausea, vomiting and diarrhea?
I just… I just… don’t get this. Child abuse doesn’t even cover this frankly. Seeing the kind of support this gets makes me think these parents get some kind of sick thrill from the struggles of their kids. Completely throws any compunction about ‘toxins’ out the window, into the bin, down to the dump and incinerated (in a non-ecofriendly manner).
For a movement that commonly defends itself as ‘not anti-vax just for safe vaccines’ (which I read to mean at least rhetorically as in favour of better safety mechanisms) theres ZERO evidence of the movement practicing what it preaches. Despite all the money it fleeces from parents by scare tactics by appealing to parents who are terrified of the doom scenarios portrayed happening to them.
In fact… I could ALMOST respect the movement if it actually put its money where its mouth was and carried out proper research even on these extreme fringe whack-jobs (even if things like MMS is not something I would consider in need of further testing) if it really put safety standards in the pharma industry to shame. But… theres just nothing. They just roll out ENDLESS treatments that most of the time arent even safe in the mildest possible sense!
I mean even if we put aside how unlikely a global conspiracy in the industry is without anyone having a conscience as they would have as believe… the fact that they are basically funnelling money into all this crap without anything baring a wink and a nod to check it is just astounding hypocricy.
To defend it all most of the time with ‘oh its MY freedom to choose!’ is horribly disingenous. That would matter if it was your own body you were sticking random crap into… but when you stick it into somebody who can’t give proper ‘informed’ consent (you know the way anti-vaxxers keep going on about ‘informed’ consent its kind of amusing if it wasn’t so sick how they throw that out the window in regards to their own kids) is just depraved. It just shows an ego-centric worldview where the parent themselves are the centre and the children are just there as an externality of the parent not an entity (however ‘retarded’ you may consider them to be) in their own right.
I apologise for the rant but… the rank hypocricy as I see it really gets to me. Was planning to try and be constructive but as of the time of this posting I’m afraid I really can’t bring myself to do it. First time posting so please, if I’ve been unnecessarily untoward, feel free to have it removed or edit it/get me to edit it as appropriate.
And just to clarify the somewhat offensively worded ‘however retarded you may consider them to be’ I chose those words in reponse to a language that I see in a ‘curbie’ arguments about a child in need to be ‘healed’ that is, in the words of John Best Jr, a train wreck (which isn’t even used as an emotive descriptor, in John Best’s vocabularly its not ‘autistic child/child with autism’ its just ‘train wreck).
Whatever you may think of their intellectual state… I havn’t met a child so severe that they are so unresponsive (and if they resist then clearly that is evidence enough you would think they ARE aware) that they don’t respond to any outside stimuli. For gods sake we treat animals better than we treat disabled children it seems.
SERIOUSLY, foks, do you give your children vaccines? Formaldehyde is formaldehyde, right? We use it to embalm dead bodies. So why do you inject it into your childrens’ bodies? Do you spray your lawns with insecticides, which your children then play in and get into their bodies – do you spray your house for ants – let them eat school lunches which have been found to be laced with amonia?? Do you let your kids swim in pools full of chlorine – do you know you absorb better through your skin than your digestive system? Wow, people in glass houses should not throw stones. And you all need to start reading if you think scientific studies are really much more than big pharma coming together to create patents and make more money. Look around you and READ – indepedent studies have not been able to replicate many of the pharmaceutical studies – this really sad if you think MMS is any different than the things you are doing to your kids.
Seriously, Viola, does your body function the way it’s supposed to? If it does, then it’s producing formaldehyde in small quantities all by itself, and the teensy little bit that is produced as a by-product of vaccine manufacturing barely gets in, and is proven to have no harmful effect on the body. By the way, just because it’s a study that agrees with a pharmaceutical company doesn’t mean it’s not independent – I would suggest you would just call any study that doesn’t agree with you a big farmer plot to overthrow your brain – don’t be too worried, there’s not much going on in there anyway.
By the way… it is officially my reckoning that anyone that’s gullible enough to buy into MMS is probably a lost cause – on an intellectual level, anyway. I doubt you have the ability to understand the real science, that’s why you’re so obviously fooled by the fake stuff, but that’s your problem – and probably your childrens, too, but I’m sure if you do them any harm you’ll face the consequences. Mostly your own distress that you caused your child harm, because I don’t doubt that most parents (misinformed or otherwise) love their children, but probably some jailtime too for neglect. Have fun with that.
Did you think the Kreb’s cycle was a bike, Viola?
Formaldehyde is made by the body everyday in its normal metabolism.
As for the other stuff you mentioned, nope, don’t use ant killer (I stomp ’em).
You say, ” you absorb better through your skin than your digestive system” so why do I still feel hungry after a session with DH and the ol’ chocolate body paint?
And yes, I do vaccinate. If you look at my “about us” page or even read the post above you might have reached that conclusion. Instead, you dive into the comments just to put us straight. What a service you’ve done for us and yourself. Adda girl!
The inevitable has finally occurred. A crazed curebie mom has murdered her autistic child by pouring bleach down his throat.
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15546675
We all knew it would come to this, the question was when……
Depressing
These parents need to be taking the MMS procedure themselves. After all maybe they’re ‘partly autistic’ and don’t know it! MMS will cure them of whatever they have.
Mostly because at this stage I think it only matters if the parents start biting the dust. God knows theres a pretty high bar for what a disabled child can be subjected to.
where is the article?
Dear Lord…are these parent/abusers still defending their abuse on public forums?
Just keep it up, you depraved sadists…the Autismum blog and other science blogs are very popular in cyberspace.
How dare you, ever claim that you are being proactive for your developmentally disabled children…you are child abusers that are deserving of public scorn and criminal indictments for child abuse. You are no better than the creeps who are out on parole for child abuse and who prey on vulnerable kids, satisfying their perverse *needs* by attacking kids.
We are “on to you” now and will not rest until you are publicly shamed and prosecuted for the sicko perverts you are.
Let me see if I have this straight…
Are you calling the parents who successfully treated their children with MMS depraved sadists and sicko perverts?
While you may disagree with parents who have chosen this route, I think your comment is inflamatory and totally biased.
I think you should go to a Childrens Hospital some time and see what the doctors do to children in the name of “treatment’. They’re burned (radiated) and given chemo therapy (poison) in the name of “killing cancer”. These kids throw up, gain or lose tons of weight and get horribly sick. I don’t see you calling the doctors or parents of these children ‘depraved sadists’ or ‘sicko perverts’.
If you’re going to try and “shame” people who do horrible things to children in the name of “treatment”, you should at least be fair in going after everyone equally.
The effects being observed by parents are not the effects of treatment, but the effects of poisoning. I liken it to a parent giving their children alcohol to make them sleep at night – except for the fact that alcohol actually causes drowsiness, and MMS does NOT cure autism – there is no cure for autism. That’s why they’re wrong.
Autistic children can lead “normal” lives, but what is normal? Your definition of normal will need to be defined – mine is somewhat different to yours, since I’m an autistic adult that has never been cured, and yet I live a very healthy life. What parents need is more understanding of their children, not a method of making them more “normal” – understand them as they are, don’t try to make them something they’re not. You’re not just poisoning their bodies with MMS, but their minds to think that they aren’t good enough as they are.
You are arguing from the point of false equivalence. Autism is not a terminal illness and children being treated with chemo or radio therapy are undergoing such to save their lives. My son attends a special school. I know, in real life and on a personal basis parents who have to take such heart breaking decisions as to whether to put their child through chemo. It is not an easy decision and one taken in consultation with a team of experts not on the say so of quasi-religious quacks or strangers on the internet. There is a plausible mechanism by which chemo and radio therapies can extend life and even help get children to a stage where their cancer is in remission. Parents who have to make such choices do so on the balance of risk versus benefit for their child. There is no benefit to the child in the MMS protocol. Just like chelation and even certain pharmaceuticals prescribed by “mainstream” doctors what the parents using MMS are seeking is an easier life for themselves and have a sick fascination with purging their child of his or her autism. Yes, I do see the repeated focus on the bowels and behinds of autistic children as a nasty festish. Andrew Wakefield got that ball well and truly rolling with his horrendous and unjustifiable probing of developmentally disabled children.
You ask:
Possibly some of them are. I don’t think anyone who would give their kid this stuff is a fit parent whether they have “done the research” or a credulous enough or not intelligent enough to see past a glossy sciencey-sounding sales pitch. As for “shaming” people who do this, I believe they should be shamed and their psychiatric health questioned if they aren’t themselves thoroughly ashamed.
Great points.
Based on this discussion, it’s become immediately apparent to me that everyone here has allowed themselved to get caught up in a meaningless argument. Whether it’s bleach or not isn’t relevant. What IS relevant is the results people have gotten.
Years ago, my mentor would say “Judge everything and every one by the results. It’s often times harsh, but it’s always fair”.
We can all sit around arguing the scientific validity, whether its bleach or not and even the accuracy of information that has been put out by other professionals. The thing is – none of that matters to the parents who used MMS to successfully help their children.
Rather than continuing to fight over meaningless crap, I would encourage everyone to keep their eyes on the prize of helping their autistic children to lead normal lives. If MMS is what does it, great. If a change in diet is what helps them, great. If it’s some other “cure” that fixes them, GREAT!! Whatever gets the RESULTS is what everyone should focus on instead of sitting around arguing technicalities.
So you’re arguing the ends justify the means? First of all we only have anecdotes that this protocol has, indeed, met with any “success.” That “success” is being described variously as more compliant and quieter children who do not laugh so much or engage in habits of which their parents do not approve. Given that there is no reasonable biological mechanism that MMS (bleach) can “treat” or “cure” autism, then one has to assume some other mechanism to be at work. The fact that children are being made sick by ingesting bleach or having it forced into them rectally will certainly make them more docile. The fact that the protocol requires dosing around the clock inevitably means children are being deprived of sleep. That too will make them more docile and let’s not forget that receiving an enema, probably under physical restraint is likely to be uncomfortable at best and extremely painful at worst. Fear will make children compliant too.
All of these effects are elicited not because of the “miracle” bleach or by some mysterious magic but by fear and physically wearing a child down. This is not a treatment, this is breaking a child’s will. The same effect can be attained by regular beatings but I’m sure, by your argument, you’d approve of those if they had the “desired effect.”
Honestly, reading this makes me want to cry. How can a person be so ignorant? I remember a while back I was reading what were supposed to be testimonials on Jim Humble’s MMS forrum.
One man in particular stands out. He was suffering with colon cancer and was attempting to treat it with MMS. He had developed a bowel obstruction from the tumor and was in pain and unable to eat. He was asking the MMS forum administrators for advice. A bowel obstruction is a surgical emergency, but not one of the MMS pushers on that forum told him he should immediately seek medical attention. They all gave varying advice on upping the dose of MMS to get rid of the tumor, and to basically stay the MMS course!
These people are criminals in my opinion. They all have blood on their hands. The fact that they could be so delusional and irrational to think that giving this to autistic children could in any way be beneficial doesn’t surprise me at all. Just like the administrators on the MMS forum they have no medical expertise. And yet they think they know what they are doing.
Jim Humble has developed a church around MMS. The dosing and protocols are referred to as ‘sacraments’. And Jim Humble refers to himself as Bishop Humble. These people who promote this and defend it have a cult like devotion to him. It’s frightening. Good for you for standing up to the likes of Kerri Rivera.
Thank you. The MMS protocol is revolting and in my opinion anyone using this on their children is not a fit parent.
“What IS relevant is the results people have gotten.”
Of which there are none. We have no data. We have some anecdotes.
We’ve had anecdotes about how chelation cured autism. 7 years ago we were told how autism was just a misdiagnosis for mercury poisoning and with 2 years’ of chelation one could “get one’s kid back”. It didn’t pan out.
We’ve heard about how giving kids drops of zeolite cured autism. One could even pay to be part of a supposed clinical trial. No results.
We’ve heard how clay baths, ionic footbaths, homeopathy and other “therapies” which were clearly not biologically plausible would “cure” autism. No results.
And here we are. A bleach is being forced on disabled kids either orally or as repeated enemas.
So, show results before shouting GREAT and RESULTS.
Right now we have proven adverse effects and zero RESULTS and not even a good explanation of why this might even be remotely biologically plausible.
A simple risk/reward calculation says this is a bad idea. Definite risks. No benefit.
@ Joe King: Regarding your statement directed at me…
“I think you should go to a Childrens Hospital some time and see what the doctors do to children in the name of “treatment’. They’re burned (radiated) and given chemo therapy (poison) in the name of “killing cancer”. These kids throw up, gain or lose tons of weight and get horribly sick. I don’t see you calling the doctors or parents of these children ‘depraved sadists’ or ‘sicko perverts’.
When was the last time you were in a Children’s Hospital, where children are being treated for cancer?
When was the last time, you were in a Children’s Hospital caring for other terribly ill youngsters who were struggling to survive a deadly illness?
I’m a registered nurse Joe, and I have cared for children undergoing treatment for cancer. They do suffer from the debilitating pain of solid tumors, bone cancers and brain cancers, as well as treatment-related pain…all in an effort to save their lives. Children diagnosed with leukemia today will have a 90 % chance of being cured of the disease. The cures that are used are well researched treatment modalities, not the quack *treatments* such as MMS bleach, not the chemically castrating Lupron and not the IV chelation that credulous parents believe in and *treat* their children with…in an effort to *recover* them from their autism.
I’ve provided intensive care for children with other deadly infections and disorders, including my own profoundly and multiply handicapped son. He only survived until age 28 because of the superb care he received…and the superb science-based medicines and medically prescribed treatments.
Are you that far gone and that bereft of empathy for these medically fragile children and their parents, Joe? The doctors, nurses and the parents as well, love these children and they don’t thing of them as “train wrecks”, who are dirty, infected with imaginary pathogens and imaginary parasites in need of cures from industrial grade bleach.
You disgust me Joe… because of you vile words, your vicious attacks on science-based medicine and, because of your defense of these child-abusing parents who bleach their kids.
Brilliant article, Autismum, you inspire me as both a person and a parent.
I have to be entirely honest – I had read about these sort of practices before (parents subjecting their autistic children to untested and unproven treatments whilst shunning conventional medicine) and even though I was angered, I felt some of the comments directed at parents who do this were inflammatory and unfair.
That was before reading the comments sections of your blog and other websites about MMS. I am beyond shocked at the attitude taken by these parents – they continue to actively harm their disabled children in spite of all the evidence that they are indeed harming, not helping them. How can it be right to use your child as a human guinea pig? If I was to buy an array of unlicensed, untested, unregulated ‘pharmaceutical’ drugs from a dodgy internet pharmacy and give them to my child; I’d be rightly castigated.How is this any different from that? How is it any different from giving your child nightly doses of alcohol, valium or methadone to help them sleep?
I understand that raising an autistic child can be challenging. But autism is not some horrendous evil that their child must be purged of. Why can’t these parents accept and love their children for who they are?
I do wonder about what motivates these parents and why they are so utterly resistant to logic and reason; accepting without question the most ridiculous, fallacious arguments that support their behaviour and dismissing out of hand or picking holes in good quality evidence that opposes it.
I’ve just been reading about some research that suggests humans are naturally prone to this sort of irrational thinking – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1528051/Were-born-with-a-belief-in-the-supernatural-says-scientist.html
The title is a bit rubbish and misleading but the article itself is quite interesting even though I’m not sure that the evidence supports many of the conclusions drawn by the researchers. One of them is quoted as saying:
” It is pointless to get people to abandon their belief systems because they operate at such a fundamental level that no amount of rational evidence or counter evidence is going to be taken on board to get people to abandon these ideas”
This does sound awfully familiar….
Thank you for such a flattering comment.
I think some parents who pursue these treatments have had a rough deal with professionals involved with their children. Speaking from my own experience there are amazing people out there working with disabled children but the ones who aren’t up to the job can be the cause of worry, frustration and, in my case, anger. I feel that some parents are reluctant to “go back” to the mainstream even though these treatments are dangerous because at least they are having some effect, albeit negative. The alernative to the alternative is unsatisfactory. I also think that turning their backs on quackery would be an admission of wrong doing.
I found this blog post recently. It is beautifully written and requires a hanky
http://emmashopebook.com/2012/06/05/how-i-made-a-mistake-and-was-given-the-opportunity-to-say-im-sorry/
My mother wrote an e-mail to Kerri regarding my little brother and this woman has written back such a cold, hurtful, and super unprofessional email back. I personally wrote back to her because I was so upset. Needless to say, I have discredited everything she has ever said!!
Thanks for your comment. I wonder if Ms Rivera has adopted this cold attitude to cope with the abuse of autistic children she oversees.
I hope that your little brother and your mum find the help he needs. The Thinking Person’s Guide Autism has wonderful articles and links to great resources for people with autism and the people who love them. It’s my favourite xx
First off its not BLEACH. I discovered MMS 9 years ago and have either given it to them or they ordered it. All that I recomended it to all have either cured their problem or are living a better life because of using MMS. This is also including my wife who suffered for 3 years going to every kind of doctor or specialist.for her problem. She used MMS worked up to 6 drops 3 times a day for one month and was cured. I too use MMS whenever I get my broncial infection knowing I’m getting it take 3 drops twice in that day and next morning with the infection cured.
It is bleach, and thinking otherwise demonstrates your poor grasp of chemistry. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but if someone with a good grasp of chemistry tells you you’re wrong, then they probably know better. Which anyone with a good grasp of chemistry will. It’s also not effective at “treating” anything, whatever effect it’s having on you is all in your head.
First off and second, third and last MMS is bleach. That you didn’t believe that nine years ago and that your beliefs haven’t changed doesn’t mean you are right it just means that you are no less gullible today than you were nearly a decade ago. Your anecdotes amount to zero and, if it’s possible after your “it’s not bleach” opening, undermine your credibility even further.
CANT ARGUE WITH A GROUP OF ASS HOLES
Well, we weren’t really trying, since there’s no argument, but at least you’re honest about yourself. Question, though: does the use of capslock make it easier to believe your own crap?
What? No exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and yet we try so hard.
Yeah really I totally agree- what a bunch of dunce ass holes totally selfishly out of touch with other peoples reality.
But in touch with actual reality
forgive my blunt reply, but to be 100% honest, many of us are drinking bleach every day per our city water system. The levels of bleach vary, but alas, it is there. So if you are going to protest against bleach, perhaps you should work on this area as well.
Forgive my blunt reply but if you look through the comments here you will see that the amount of bleach in drinking water is at a safe level. Also, no one is trying to force that up your arse without your consent.
The amount of ‘bleach’ used for water treatment is substantially lower than the doses administered via MMS ‘treatment’ (and I use that term loosely).
MMS is 22.4% sodium chlorite.
So, if we had 100 mL of MMS solution, we’d have 22.4 grams of sodium chlorite. That’s a substantial amount.
Let’s do some math and chemistry:
22.4 grams in 100 mL =
0.224 grams (or 224 mg) in 1 mL
(224 mg/mL)*(1 mL/20 drops)
So there’s around 20 drops per mL, so 1 drop = ~11.2 mg of sodium chlorite
IIRC, the protocol is what, 3-7 drops in
How does that compare to use of chlorine for sanitation purposes?
Click to access sobel_1998.pdf
There’s a report on the use of bleach for water purification purposes.
“Soap and hypochlorite. A bar of Safeguard Antibacterial Soap™ and a 125-ml bottle of Magia Blanca™ bleach (4.95% free available chlorine) provided by the Procter and Gamble Company (Cincinnati, OH) were given to intervention vendors after the baseline survey and at each weekly follow-up visit. Vendors were instructed to add 1/2 capful (about 2.5 ml) of bleach to the full 20-liter water storage and hand-washing vessels to obtain a final concentration > 0.5 ppm average CI; and wait 30 mm before using the water”
So, we have a 4.95% sodium hypochlorite solution, or 4.95 grams of sodium hypochlorite per 100 mL.
4.95 grams in 100 mL =
0.0495 grams (or 49.5 mg) in 1 mL
(49.5 mg/mL)*(1 mL/20 drops) = 2.5 (rounded up) mg of sodium hypochlorite per drop. This is just a comparison – drop for drop, there’s 4X as much bleach in a MMS drop than there is in a ‘water purification’ drop.
But – what’s the dose that they used for purification? They used 2.5 mL of 4.95% sodium hypochlorite in 20 liters of water.
49.5 mg in 1 mL = 123.75 mg in 2.5 mL, which was then added to 20 liters of water.
123.75 mg in 20 L is the equivalent to 6.19 (rounded up) mg per 1L, or 6.19 ppm.
Let’s compare that to the MMS solution.
Kerri recommends ‘starting off’ with 1 drop in 8 oz of water.
Since we know one drop is 11.2 mg, and 8 ounces is ~0.237 L, we can do the math:
(11.2 mg)/(0.237L) = 47.3 (rounded up) mg/L or 47.3 ppm.
As per her chart, at 25 pounds, you should be giving 8 drops per ‘dose’ and she also mentions doing a ‘MMS weekend’ where you give your child a dose every 2 hours for 72 hours.
Let’s do that math, shall we?
8 drops every 2 hours for 72 hours. There’s 36 2 hour intervals in 72 hours, with 8 drops at each interval, so in all you’re administering 288 drops in 72 hours.
288 drops at 11.2 mg per drop = 3225.6 mg of MMS in 72 hours. We don’t know how much liquid it’s being dispersed in, so we can’t give a ppm estimate. If we assume each dose is accompanied by 8 ounces of water:
(8*11.2 mg)/(0.237 L) = ~378 mg/L or 378 ppm.
What about a child that’s 100 pounds? That’s 24 drops per ‘dose’. What’s that math look like?
24 drops every 2 hours for 72 hours. 36 ‘doses’ of 24 drops = 864 drops of MMS in 72 hours.
864 drops at 11.2 mg per drop = 9676.8 mg of MMS in 72 hours.
Again, assuming each ‘dose’ is accompanied by 8 ounces of water,
(24*11.2 mg)/(0.237 L) = 1134.2 mg/L or 1134.2 ppm
So we can reasonably compare the doses from chlorine treatment for drinking water to MMS.
(47.3 ppm for MMS/6.19 ppm for water treatment) = 7.64
With 1 drop of MMS in 8 ounces of water, you’re giving 7.6 times the amount of bleach that they used to treat the water in the study shown for EACH treatment of MMS
With 8 drops of MMS in 8 ounces of water, you’re giving: 61 times the amount of bleach used to treat water.
(378 ppm for MMS / 6.19 ppm for water treatment) = 61.066
With 24 drops of MMS:
(1134.2 ppm for MMS / 6.19 ppm for water treatment) = 183.2 times the amount of bleach.
Dosage matters. The amounts given to children as per Kerri’s recommendations are absolutely ABSURD and DANGEROUS.
Bah, I edited out a line by mistake.
“IIRC, the protocol is what, 3-7 drops in”
Should read, “IIRC, the protocol is what, 3-7 drops in 8 ounces of water as per Kerri’s site”
I loves you I do.
It should also be mentioned that if you’re using less than 8 oz of water for a MMS ‘treatment’ (and you most likely will, since infants won’t drink 8 oz at a time), the ppm will increase, making it even more concentrated bleach than what you’d get from a municipal water supply.
Oh, and before folks start screaming about the difference in MMS and sodium hypochlorite, the difference is a single oxygen atom.
MMS: NaClO2
“Clorox” bleach aka Sodium hypochlorite: NaClO
It’s the chlorine which is the antimicrobial, so regardless of MMS/Clorox, there’s the same amount of chlorine in the exposures.
We can do that math, too.
6.19 ppm of NaClO:
(6.19 mg NaClO/L)*(1 mmol NaClO/74.44 mg NaClO)*(1 mmol Cl/mmol NaClO)*(35.45 mg Cl/mmol Cl) = 2.95 mg Cl/L
2.95 mg Cl- /L (I say Cl- because it’s an anion, and that’s how it should be written).
47.3 ppm of NaClO2:
(47.3 mg NaClO2/L)*(1 mmol NaClO2/90.44 mg NaClO2)*(1 mmolCl/mmol NaClO2)*(35.45 mg Cl/mmol Cl) = 18.54 mg Cl-/L
18.54 mg Cl-/L
18.54/2.95 = 6.28
MMS at 47.3 ppm (ie: 1 drop) has over 6 times the amount of chlorine than 1 drop of the chlorinated water used in the study above.
but…but…she made a POWERPOINT!!! You can’t argue with a powerpoint presentation. It’s so….slick and official seeming!
Flush the sporns!
I will flush mine with orange juse at the next Skeptics in the Pub – I’ll add some antimicrobial agent to it too. I was thinking vodka.
MMS is indeed bad, but you have to remember the FDA is indeed bad too. They spread a lot of misinformation and work for the interests of pharmaceutical industries. Moreover, stuff like SSRIs and adderall are still frequently prescribed when there are healthier alternatives out there with supporting evidence. For example, aniracetam has been shown to have less side-effects than SSRIs and it is harmful for the brain in the long-run (i.e., it is used on patients with Alzheimer’s), and there are studies you can read on PubMed on it. Thus, why are drugs like adderall still prescribed, when there is documented evidence it deteriorates the hippocampi? There is a lot of “shady” business going on here. Also, it is true there TENDS to be a lot of harmful preservatives in processed foods, that people are not aware of, but this is easy to avoid if you don’t eat processed foods.
Granted, MMS is bad. It is buying into people’s fear of how these pharmaceutical industries do not have our best intentions at heart. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Pictures of the parasites/worms emerging after MMS purging are nothing more than strips of fibrinous material and bits of intestinal mucosal lining that has been stripped away from the bowel. This doesn’t mean all “detoxing” methods are bad, but it just means we shouldn’t be drinking bleach. I’m pretty sure a diet with garlic and apple cider vinegar is good enough… There is no miracle cure to anything.
Candida is a real thing, but you don’t want to flush it out by destroying your guts in the process…
Detox is a load of hooey but thanks for your comment
Chlorine dioxide is used in oral care products (mouthwash, toothpaste). It is the most effective bacteria killer known (required concentration to kill bacteria in 10 min but not in 5 min is something like 1/300 the required concentration of phenol).
If “bleach” means full strength bleach, then no, it is not. If yoiu think “bleach” (ie oxidixers) to be inherently bad and of no medical use, look up “Dakin’s solution”.
I think you need to read the comments here by those more educated in chemistry than you. Or, perhaps, a twelve year old as I believe they would understand the idea of dilution. Merry Christmas.
Those products are not intended for ingestion or rectal administration.
There’s a difference.
ok, it’s bleach, so what, as long as it cures my son’s autism, you can call it what ever name you want,i would use it, don’t be so closed minded, at end of the day, kids who use MMS will get the benefits, kids who don’t use it still suffer from autism. I think it’s more risky not to use it, my six sense just telling me MMS is what i need to fully recover my son’s autism.
So what? It’s bleach you stupid bint. FFS. Your six (sic) sense? you have no sense at all if you’re going to torture your child with caustic chemicals. What’s the matter with you?
torture? people being forced to take vaccines, chemo, radiation that’s called torture. i trusted mainstream doctors before, took their bad advise, that’s why my son’s autistic. i learned my lesson hard way. whenever somebody discover something good for our health or cure for cancer, FDA would always make it illegal, whatever is harmful to people, guess what, it’a approved by FDA. so, now i know whatever is approved by FDA, it’s bad for you, don’t use it, whatever is banned by FDA, it’s good for you,use it, it’s good for you. your grovenment and pharmaceutical are trying so hard to keep people sick, keep trying! if you don’t think MMS is good idea, what should be used to recover autistic kids? Do you have better idea?
the notion of recovering autistic kids has been dreamt up to part credulous fools like you from their money.
My better idea is to love, accept and cherish the child you have and not try to turn him into something he is not, never was nor can ever be.
As an autistic person myself, if my parents gave me bleach to try to “cure” it, I would bring them up on charges when I was old enough. I would ask them what the hell they were thinking, and then disown and disavow any knowledge of them. I would tell people they were killed in a car accident, and then never speak of them again. The first, real offence that you’re making against your child is thinking that autism is a disease that can be cure. It’s not, it’s a condition that makes them different to you, and it’s up to you to understand that difference, not try to change them into your idea of “normal”. The effects you are seeing from bleach treatments are those of poisoning, not curing. I hope your child survives long enough to have the opportunity to realise how terrible you are and fuck you outta their life completely. Thank the stars my mother wasn’t a complete imbecile like you, and actually loved me enough to check her facts instead of visiting unprovable conspiracy theories for her answers.
As much as I’d like to be a part of these discussions, considering the amount of sniping, personal attacks and otherwise bad form with which these comments sections are rife, I’d rather not even read them. Very few of you can seem to have a meaningful, mature discussion without devolving into all-encompassing insults directed either toward mainstream medicine or natural/homeopathic approaches. I am unwilling to hold completely at-fault either side, and so I believe I have nothing to add to any of these lines of thought.
As with all other pursuits/interests/subjects in life, until we can learn to approach one another as mature adults and with respect, we are little more than cavemen with keyboards. Best of luck to the rest of you.
I cannot approach a person who is willing to shove bleach up a child’s arse as a mature adult of equivalent intellect or education.
I definitely understand that. I wouldn’t advocate for it, either. I just meant that there’s way too much venom flying around here to think for a moment that there’s going to be anything said which will amount to level-headed, rational discourse.
I’m hoping that those using mms on their kids aren’t rational and perhaps harsh words might bring them to their senses. The alternative is they know that this abuse and are monsters
The alternative is unthinkable. I think conditions like autism make people do desperate things. That’s not excusing it by a long-shot, but there are just so many people out there who can be easily led around by the nose as it is; combine that with fear and uncertainty and you’ve got the makings of a disaster.
That is very scientific approach of yours! You all need to know what you are talking about. Chlorine dioxide is NOT bleach. The chemical composition is different. The fact that it oxidizes (disinfects) or that it has the word chlorine it doesn’t mean it’s bleach. If only you knew what you are talking about. Chlorine dioxide does oxidate but it does NOT chlorinate. Oxigen, ozone, also oxidize (disinfect)…For God in Heaven stop being so opinionated and get your chemistry right. Table salt, which is called Sodium CHLORIDE would be deadly if one ingests 70 grams of it, and we don’t call it a poison, it’s in every store in the world. Chlorine dioxide is an incredible useful external and internal disinfectant if one uses the right amount. The dosage that the MMS people recommend is way way lower than what would be not optimal to use. When it encounters a bacteria or virus, it oxidizes it and the breakdown is clean, meaning it does not derive in any toxic subproduct. Thus in the body the only thing leftover is a decomposed bacteria and a tiny little sodium (salt). It does not oxidize healthy tissue cells like ozone or hidrogen peroxide would because it has a low oxidative potential. Meaning that IS truly selective based on PH. It will oxidize only low PH cells and these are, conveniently enough, virus, bacteria, and poisons. So it is a safe and clean disinfection.
Bleach, my friends, is chemically different and when it encounters a bacteria, it will oxidize it but because of its chemical composition, the result leftover would be a decomposed bacteria AND dioxins. Dioxins are toxic to the body and that is the reason why it is not safe to ingest bleach even though it would be disinfectant.
There are TOO MANY misinformed, rapidly critizizing people. Some people are confused and others perhaps just need to feel better finding faults in others, they are not doing any favor to themselves or to others by raising concerns about Clorine dioxide based on incorrect information and many not correct assumptions.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1996-title21-vol3/html/CFR-1996-title21-vol3-sec173-300.htm
I imagine that this Miss Rivera doesn’t want to bother with responses to people that don’t want to really hear what she has to say.
I just read some about MMS results of so many testimonials. The correct approach here would be contacting the mothers. You should all be more interested in hearing what the mothers and the children that I heard had their autism reversed would tell you instead of attacking everyone here that is trying to open your eyes a bit while you are spitting at them thinking that you are correct and there are so many nasty people trying to poison their children. And I understand and can see that you are just trying to share what you believe is true. The problem here is that it is not true.
There is one recorded testimonial that I have seen and it’s this one
I have no interest in a discussion, thank you.
YAAWNSVILLE!
It’s like groundhog day with you bleach guzzlers
Autism is physical (body) disorder, it’s gut-brain connection. autism is accumulation of toxics in the body, you can watch Dr.Natasha Campbell’s videos on youtube or go to her website, she explained in detail. Kerri Rivers has video called” 38 Children Recovered in 20 months with MMS” on autismone website. i think Dr.Natasha Campbell’s GAPS diet is best diet to heal the gut, many good doctors believe all diseases begin in the gut, including cancer, high blood presure, HIV, you name it. if after you watched all the videos i mentioned above, you still not convinced, then there’s nothing i can say, but one thing is for sure, while other kids are recovering from this diease, your son will stay autistic forever because you are not doing anything to help him, that’s called torture.
Is there nothing you don’t fall for? bleach doesn’t cure autism and you haven’t won the Nigerian lottery either.
I do have to say that I found this interesting:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/01/gaps-in-a-doctors-reasoning-about-vaccines/
I’m sure it’s been posted here before, but just in case…
How can you be so rude? What gives you the right to sit in judgement? What are your credentials? It is your blog, fair enough but that does not excuse your bad form. Just because someone has a difference of opinion doesn’t make them wrong. Someone contradicting your perspective does not give you the right to be rude, even if it is your blog. If you want to stand on your soapbox then do so and don’t open your blog to comment.
“but I am trying – really I am – to understand how anyone capable of reading and writing and using a computer can be so dense.” Autismum 12 December, 2012.
“was the world believed to be flat?” Yes it was, even up until the 17th century. Your condescension comes through when asking for specifics. I would suggest you Google “when was the world believed to be flat” and it will enlighten you.
“Have you read more comments on the post?” Yes I have.
“Chemically, what is a bleach?” Wikipedia says ” the solution of sodium hypochlorite, which is so ubiquitous that many people just call it “bleach”.
“Do you understand the concept of dilution or even rinsing?” Yes, I do. What is your point?
“I look forward to your response”… You are not interested in my opinion because it is contrary to yours.
The thing is, I can agree with one of the prevailing ideals in this blog, “Do not give anyone ‘Bleach'”. Where we differ in opinion, and what I am trying to accomplish by replying, is to educate that MMS is not bleach, and anyone saying it is bleach needs to freshen up their Chemistry 101. Quoting any Chemistry here would be to no avail if your position is closed. I will reply if you truly are open to the idea that you may, just possibly, learn something about chemistry.
I find being rude quite easy – contradicting someone isn’t rude. Contradicting you is child’s play.
What credentials are required to know that shoving bleach into the bottom of a child is a form of torture? Forcing objects into a child’s rectum when there is clearly no reason to do so is degrading and is absolutely abuse.
And who thought the world was flat until the 17th century? The uneducated.
Am I condescending? Yes. Don’t like it? Bugger off, then.
We agree on something else… Contradicting someone isn’t rude.
See how well we are getting along?
It is a shame that you are so full of vitriol that you didn’t even read my complete post. More specifically the part where I said “Do not give anyone Bleach”.
The uneducated, says the person living in the 21st century dismissively. Your true colors showed through with a previous statement you made on 9 January, 2013 in part… “a mature adult of equivalent intellect or education.” You clearly put yourself above most.
I shall take your advice and ‘Bugger off, then.’
up to you but you are more than welcome to return at any time. I think, tonight you may be mistaking vitriol for fish pie and mushy peas.
MMS is bleach. You are a moron. See how much I give a crap? I would personally be nicer about it if people weren’t poisoning their children. And I bet you’d ask someone “what are your credentials” and in the same paragraph completely disregard the expertise of the people with credentials who are saying the same thing.
Hey Gord,
MMS or chlorine dioxide IS bleach. It even smells like bleach. This is a serious issue. There are stupid credulous parents who are willing to shove this caustic substance up their poor autistic children’s rectums. I can’t help that you don’t see the horror in this Gord. Parents who do this to their helpless chid deserve the very strongest condemnation.
“MMS for Autism – a Reply Autismum” was genuinely pleasurable and
helpful! Within modern universe that’s very difficult to accomplish.
Many thanks, Edwin
I feel the need to make a comment here.
The use of scaremongering by saying “BLEACH BLEACH BLEACH” is at best misleading. Although this product (by which I refer to as Chlorine Dioxide) can have a bleaching effect when in a concentrated form, the product referred to as MMS is intended to be delivered in a diluted form.
Stay with me for a while if you will. If there was no clean drinking water around I would happily add a few drops of domestic bleach (sodium hypochlorite) to my water and leave it to kill all the bacteria/viruses and then consume it. This however is not to say I would propose doing this unless I really needed to, but wanted to give an example.
With regards to Chlorine Dioxide, which is derived from 28% sodium chlorite (different to above) this is NOT the same as “bleach” (which is the common term given to domestic bleach sodium hypochlorite).
Chlorine Dioxide has been tested to determine its safety in ORAL INGESTION by humans (see here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1569027/?page=1) and it was shown that “the relative safety of oral ingestion of chlorine dioxide and its metabolites, chlorite and chlorate, was demonstrated”. I presume this was with a view to it being added to municipal water supplies, which in some places it is.
Please be aware that there are also patents that exist for the use of chlorine dioxide in the treatment of various illnesses, and, if you do your research, you will find that there are already approved products on the market containing chlorine dioxide, which are taken in the mouth.
The people at Genesis Church who work with Jim Humble are not money grabbing globalist/capitalist types looking to make a profit at any cost, they are genuine human beings looking to help others.
In the words of Murray from Flight of the Conchords “Give Pete a chance!”
Please read through the comments in response to the many other gullible people who’ve come wailing “it’s not bleach,” and your other yawnsome rantings. They have all been corrected and you have added nothing new. You have just come to defend those who either through cruelty or credulity are willing to abuse their autistic children.
Nik,
The approved products containing chlorine dioxide for use in the mouth are NOT meant to be swallowed / ingested internally. These products are to be used TOPICALLY, swished around the mouth and then expelled. So please don’t try to pretend chlorine dioxide is approved for INTERNAL treatment of disease.
Also, as has been repeated numerous times, the level of chlorine dioxide that has been determined to be safe for water purification is minuscule compared to the amounts Jimbo and his cohorts tell people to drink, squirt, spray, inject, inhale, and bathe in.
As for Jim Humble and the people at his church not being “in it for the money”, I suggest you take a look at Humble’s description of the events that led up to him “ex-communicating” one of his quote health ministers from his church. It’s an interesting read if just for some giggles.
http://mmsnews.org/all-newsletters/143-genesis-ii-church-excommunication-order-for-janet-hedlund-11-23-2012.html
Make no mistake. There are $$$$ flowing to Humble’s church/ operation down there in Costa Rica, that’s far far away from the prying eyes of the IRS and other authorities.
Firstly – I am not surprised at the personal attack on here as it appears to be a common theme, but I can assure you it is water off a flamingo’s back.
However, I would urge you both to re-read my post and take a look at the scientific study carried out in human subjects. Did you even look before commenting?
Chlorine dioxide up to 24 mg/l can be safely ingested according to this study.
To summarise:
Phase I – Cohort of 60 subjects received increasing doses of either chlorate, water, chlorine dioxide, chlorite, chlorine or chloramine but lets focus on the subset receiving chlorine dioxide as this is what MMS is once “activated”.
They used increasing doses of 0.1, 1.0, 5.0, 10.0, 18.0 and 24.0 mg/l of chlorine dioxide. On the first day of each 3 day treatment the subjects were administered two 500 ml doses with a 4 hour interval between doses. Day 2 and 3 were observation days (carried out by suitably qualified investigators/clinicians), with blood and urine samples taken on day 2 for laboratory analysis.
Phase II – Cohort of 60 subjects but again focussing on the chlorine dioxide subset who received 500 ml of 5 mg/l concentration chlorine dioxide daily for 12 weeks.
Phase III – This can be ignored as it focussed on 3 subjects receiving sodium chlorite.
I will quote the relevant findings in the discussion:
“[…] no definitive finding of detrimental physiological impact was made in any of the three phases of this human investigation of the relative safety and tolerance of oral chlorine disinfectant ingestion. In several cases, statistically significant trends were associated with treatment [bear in mind this relates to all disinfectants ingested not just chlorine dioxide – see table 3 of study and results section]; however, none of these trends were judged to have immediate physiological consequence. One cannot rule out the possibility that, over a longer treatment period, these trends might indeed achieve proportions of clinical importance. However, within the limits of the study, the relative safety of oral ingestion of chlorine dioxide and its metabolites, chlorite and chlorate, was demonstrated by the absence of detrimental physiological response […]”
So you see, it is not as clear cut as this blog makes it out to be. Try being a bit more open-minded and less abrasive.
Take a look here for example – http://mmscr.timeclever.com/hall-of-fame/main-hall/jim-humble/
With regards to your comments about the dilutions, it is clear from this study alone that subjects were receiving 24 mg/l of chlorine dioxide in phase I and then regularly 5 mg/l in phase II.
I must admit that I haven’t done the exact maths but my understanding is that according to the Genesis Church and http://www.mmswiki.org website, a 22 – 28 % stock of sodium chlorite is used to create the chlorine dioxide by activating with equal drops of citric acid. I am not certain of the amount of chlorine dioxide contained in each activated drop but would be interested to learn.
Various protocols advocate various amounts to be used to treat but if we use the Protocol 1000 for example, it suggests 3 drops of the activated solution to be added to a glass of water or apple juice per hour for 8 hours per day, or 24 drops of activated solution in a 1 litre bottle of water taking 1/8th of the bottle per hour for 8 hours.
Is 24 drops of this activated solution going to be the equivalent of 5 mg/l or 24 mg/l of chlorine dioxide as per the study above? I could be wrong but I doubt it is.
Finally, I never said that the approved products were ingested I said “taken in the mouth” – please do not attempt to twist my words. When things go into the mouth there is always some product, particularly if gargled/swirled, around that will be absorbed into the blood.
I have ZERO affiliation with Genesis Church or any of its members, although I have received MMS + Citric Acid from one of the Reverends but they are not my friend, although I have spoken with them on a forum and via Skype once. I say this so that I cannot be accused of being Pro Genesis/Humble and for openness.
I effectively used MMS (well sodium chlorite as it was unactivated) on a burn on my hand after pouring 1 litre of boiling soup on my hand and it worked brilliantly, but that was down to it being a strong alkali and thus neutralising the acidic burn! Not a miracle just science. Healed perfectly and very rapidly with no scar.
I am yet to use it as MMS activated to treat any illness of my own.
I have an open mind with this, which does not make me gullible, I am just curious.
I’ve already broken down the math and the chemistry.
I love the link you provided.
Seriously.
You’re attempting to use a clinical evaluation of these compounds done in ADULT men as a reason to administer MMS to infants and children.
Furthermore, from the study itself, “In several cases, statistically significant trends were associated with treatment; however, none of these trends were judged to have immediate physiological consequence.One cannot rule out the possibility that, over a longer treatment period, these trends might indeed achieve proportions of clinical importance.”
Chlorine dioxide is an industrial bleach, period.
The amounts being given are exceeding what would be found in water treatment plants and in treated water. They’re also more concentrated, which can also cause damage.
In your study they received 5 mg/L. The MMS solution is 43.7 mg/L.
Dose matters – especially for infants and children.
feel like you’re bashing your head against a brick wall?
Nik,
“Firstly – I am not surprised at the personal attack on here as it appears to be a common theme, but I can assure you it is water off a flamingo’s back.”
I’m not aware of any personal attack on you by me. The only comment I made that could possibly be interpreted as being in anyway personal, was my recommendation that you read for yourself about the chenigans concerning money and Jim Humble’s church.
“Did you even look before commenting?”
Yes. I’m quite familiar with the Lubbers study. Again, the doeses of chlorine dioxide that were given to the test subjects were much much lower than what Humble tells people to drink. As you said, in the Lubbers study the subjects were given 24 drops of this activated solution which is the equivalent of 5 mg/l or 24 mg/l of chlorine dioxide. The MMS protocols will result in a solution that’s around a whopping 600 PPM of ClO2!
A dose of chlorine dioxide of 10-15 grams is considered to be lethal (OSHA guidelines). Even small amounts of about 1 gram can be expected to cause nausea and vomiting. The MMS protocols suggests that taking up to 60 drops per day is perfectly desirable! There are 20 drops in one gram, which means that the protocol may call for the ingestion of 3 grams. This is 20% of the LD/50 or the required amount to kill you.
“Finally, I never said that the approved products were ingested I said “taken in the mouth” – please do not attempt to twist my words.”
Here were your words; “Chlorine Dioxide has been tested to determine its safety in ORAL INGESTION by humans”
It sure sounds to me like you are claiming there are products that contain chlorine dioxide that are safe to drink/ingest. By the way, swishing a substance around the inside of the mouth and putting it on the skin topically won’t result in anywhere near the absorption rates that would be expected from taking the substance orally.
Just because something has been patented does not mean that it will work or preform as stated in the patent application. Drug companies take out patents on drugs all the time BEFORE they have completed studies and know for sure if the drug will work as expected. So just because something has been patented in no way guarentees it’s validity.
The fact that your burn healed perfectly and without a scar is more a reflection of the depth of the burn. Chlorine dioxide IS a powerful antiseptic and disinfectant. It is possible that applying it to a wound would prevent secondary infection. However, it’s been determined that strong oxidizers like chlorine dioxide and hydrogen peroxide also damage good tissue and can actually delay healing. Hydrogen peroxide is no longer recommended for use in cleaning open wounds.
“I have an open mind with this, which does not make me gullible, I am just curious.”
Have you tried Lysol internally? It too is a great disinfectant and antiseptic. Like chlorine dioxide it’s not recommended for human consumption at high rates, ………..but hey keep an open mind. Give it a try!
Again, all you have shown is your inability to accurately read anything I post.
Fail!
Try again.
Nik
If you are being honest (I have my doubts) and you have no afilliation with Jim and his church and you are “just curious” then here is an excellent blog written by an M.D. and cancer researcher. I have a feeling you will dismiss it out of hand. There are several clues in your writings that belie what your true feelings are regarding drinking MMS / diluted bleach to treat disease.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/bleaching-away-what-ails-you/
I am being honest. I have no affiliation with Jim Humble or any others at his church.
All I am interested in is whether there is any truth in MMS and what it can treat.
What people choose to do with their own bodies or their children’s is their own business. They need to do their own research and make informed decisions.
I read the link you provided, all of it, and the author came across as a close-minded opinionated arse looking for praise for his “great work” in his blog. Didn’t gain anything from it that I didn’t already know, but thanks for sharing. I can’t stand the use of the term “woo” it is just embarrassing.
I am keen to learn the exact mg per day of chlorine dioxide in 24 drops of activated MMS and then we can compare it to the study(ies) already carried out using chlorine dioxide. I think the data is out there I just need to do some digging and I will share my findings here regardless of the results.
I am interested in the clearance rate of chlorine dioxide as the church makes some interesting claims in that regard.
“I read the link you provided, all of it, and the author came across as a close-minded opinionated arse looking for praise for his “great work” in his blog.”
Funny how supposedly “open minded” people use the tone of his message to discount the actual facts. It’s an easy out.
Let’s start from basics. MMS and it’s by products are bleaches. That makes Humble a liar.
Chlorine Dioxide will attack tissue. That makes Kerri Rivera a liar.
Chlorine dioxide does nothing to assist in the treatment of autism. Her claims that MMS will help the body rid itself of toxins is nonsense. She gives no evidence, for example, of excretion of heavy metals. Why? Because MMS and chlorine dioxide don’t act as chelators.
Parents are told to dose their children up to the point they feel sick, then back off. If one wants to argue some abstract about whether this has any harmful effects, go ahead. It isn’t the critics only who are claiming this sickens children.
So you have two liars promoting a treatment which has no benefit and makes kids feel sick. The risk/reward calcluation is very simple
Nik
You’ve just confirmed what I suspected all along.
What did you suspect all along? That I don’t fall in line with your viewpoint? Sorry but that’s life.
If that guy who wrote the blog you linked to is a doctor then I am worried about the state of the medical profession.
I came on here to open an adult debate about the use of chlorine dioxide in humans, with a link to a published paper showing that it can be tolerated in human subjects.
All I have received in turn is insults and attacks.
I dare say this is deliberate and that this site is clearly intended as an “anti MMS” site regardless of the evidence presented.
The vibe I get from you “caring” parents is awful and I am a caring parent who has never inserted bleach or diluted chlorine dioxide else into my children either orally or anally.
You truly are a difficult bunch to converse with! Shame 😦
Yep this site is most definitely ant MMS. Has that just dawned on you?
I will look into it in more detail tomorrow but I have a feeling that data exists to show that chlorine dioxide can be safely ingested at the recommended doses in the genesis church protocols. And if it is so would that make a difference to your OPINIONS?
You lost the moral high ground on insults and attacks when you dismissed the blog at science based medicine with insults. And then did it again when asked to be more substantive.
The “you are anti-MMS” is an attempt to dismiss decisions made by people who have spent considerable time analyzing MMS and who have come to the conclusion it is (a) nonsense and (b) possibly harmful.
It is a passive-aggressive way of offering an insult.
“but that was down to it being a strong alkali and thus neutralising the acidic burn! ”
That’s nonsense. If the tissue was damaged, burned, neutralizing the acid would stop further harm, not heal the tissue. Further, who in their right mind burns their hand (with a liter?) and then waits around to open a bottle of MMS? If you didn’t have the instinct, let alone intelligence, to wash your hand immediately, you can’t really speak to the pseudo-science behind MMS.
I thought this next point was obvious, but my guess is you don’t see it that way:
When you pour soup on your hand, the burn is from temperature, not the pH of the soup.
What sort of soup are you making, anyway? If the soup were acidic enough to burn your hand, who was supposed to eat it? You do realize if it would give an acid burn to your hand, your mouth and throat would be badly damaged, right?
Nik,.
“I came on here to open an adult debate about the use of chlorine dioxide in humans, with a link to a published paper showing that it can be tolerated in human subjects.”
Proponents of MMS always seem to trot out the study you linked to. For the LAST time the study is irrelevant as to whether or not it is safe to drink bleach/MMS at the levels Humble and Co. are telling people to drink it. Why? Because the amounts that were given the subjects in the Lubber study were a minuscule compared to Humble’s protocols.
Chlorine dioxide was never intended to be used internally to treat disease. It’s a powerful antiseptic and disinfectant. It works by denaturing the cell wall……..that would be ALL CELLS it comes in contact with. It is in no way selective as to which cells it damages and destroys. Good or bad cells it denatures them all. THAT’S WHAT IT DOES! This stuff is not some sophisticated chemical that is somehow highly selective as to what it destroys. Researchers figured out a long time ago that in order for it to be effective in killing pathogens inside the body it would have to be taken at a dose so high as to be toxic to the patient. But it is useful for water purification in tiny amounts and for disinfecting floors and equipment.
As for the treatment of diseases like cancer and autism there is no plausible reason why drinking what amounts to a bleaching agent would be an effective treatment. The whole premise is laughable, except that it’s not really funny.
You came here to have an adult discussion? You’re annoyed because we weren’t persuaded by a study that was done using chlorine dioxide at a fraction of what Jimbo is telling his followers to drink it at? You really think the study you gave as an example shows MMS to be safe at the levels Jim says to drink it at?
I’m afraid you’ll be hunting for a very long time for a published study where chlorine dioxide was given to human subjects at the levels Humble is saying to ingest it. You won’t find it. It wouldn’t be ethical to poison people in that way. There is however plenty in the literature on the deleterious effects of exposure to high levels of chlorine dioxide. Nasty stuff.
Keep in mind, the “adult discussion” comment is often a ploy. It’s a passive-aggressive insult to say, “you are acting like children, while I am the mature one in this discussion”.
This is how I treat adults who are apologists for people promoting bad science. If I were doing the same, I would expect no less.
I can assure you that in my case there is no ploy. I am genuinely here to learn more and i am genuinely interested in whether there is anything in these claims of the successes of using MMS and in the dangers you describe here. There are, without doubt, thousands of pieces of anecdotal evidence of its success in treating various diseases, ailments and illnesses. From my investigation so far (and I will now look further) there are nowhere near as many reports of poisoning, illness or death caused by following the Genesis Church protocols.
That said, I AM NOT CONVINCED of its quality, safety or efficacy. There are studies out there and I intend to do a thorough review of them, peer-reviewed or not, but I am not convinced that any Pharma sponsored studies will exist for a number of reasons. But for want of not wanting to be classed as a conspiracy nut, I will not detail them!
vaccine – in order to prevent get hit by train, you need to run on the train tracks, does that even make sense? My god, i can’t belive you still think vaccines are good for children, if it’s so good, how come the more shot my son took, the more autistic he became, my younger daughter was also on the way to became autistic, but i woke up and stopped give her any more toxic vaccines, i did diet and many other things including MMS to help my children, my daughter is fine now, my son also doing well now, the only problem is his speech still behind, i’m going to try CEASE therapy soon, i cannot afford to not try it. By the way, MMS enema or coffee enema is good idea, because i see good result. My daughter start talking in sentences after i stared to give her oral MMS. Autism is diease, it’s not who they are, nobody want to be sick, our body want to be healthy, but untill you do something to help the body to repair itself, he will stay autistic. i can’t believe you still trust medical psychopath, causing diseases and curing nothing.
“vaccine – in order to prevent get hit by train, you need to run on the train tracks, does that even make sense?”
No, because it’s a shitty analogy that demonstrates a flawed understanding of the differences between the immune system and a railway line.
“if it’s so good, how come the more shot my son took, the more autistic he became”
How come when you stop vaccinating a population, autism continues to thrive on it? You think your observations of your two children, a population sample of two “studied” by an illiterate and biased parent, means something?
“the only problem is his speech still behind”
Your speech is so illiterate and incoherent, I don’t think you’re capable of making a determination of how good the speech of other people is.
“utism is diease, it’s not who they are, nobody want to be sick, our body want to be healthy”
The reason I’m being an arsehole to you is because, as an autistic individual, I find this statement incredibly misinformed, the words of someone who has no fucking clue what they’re talking about, and I find it incredibly offensive. I am not diseased, autism absolutely is a part of who I am, and I wouldn’t be who I am today if it wasn’t for it. And there are MANY other autistic adults who would agree. My body is healthy, my mind works different. It’s not diseased, it’s DIFFERENT. The key word there is DIFFERENT, and just because something or someone is DIFFERENT to what you’re used to, doesn’t mean there’s something WRONG with it, it just means you don’t understand it.
And until you do understand it, you’re probably going to keep poisoning your kids with MMS. By the stars, if you were any parent of mine, and I’d survived all the poisons you shoved on me to adulthood, you would be getting dis-fucking-owned.
I have to say something… I haven’t suffered from autism. But I had skin, breathing and allergy problems. That MMS “bleach” made my life bearable. I’ve been taking it for 4 years and I take it every time I’ve got some problem.
My son hasn’t suffered from autism. He is autistic. So, you drink bleach. What do you want? A medal? A knighthood? I, Autismum, Queen of this blog, dub thee Sir Thickalot.
I said ironicallly “bleach”. I meant that I drink MMS on a daily basis for 4 years. That generally saved my life, as before it was kind of long lasting agony.
I’m not as stupid to do anything for any stupid medal or other symbol of achievement. I did it for myself. Just to give it a try, as theory behins MMS was convincing me. And after 4 years I can definietely say, that I won by that try 🙂
Yeah. Look up what irony is and while you’re at it look up bleach.
I wanted to answer to this post:
“Autismum
20 April, 2013
Yeah. Look up what irony is and while you’re at it look up bleach.”
I don’t know I can’t answer to it directly. And here’s my answer:
I know very well what irony is (your post suggests you don’t know it 🙂 ).
I know very well what bleach is. Hydrogen peroxide, lemon juice, bakind soda, and so on are also bleaches… Do you fight them too? I hope at least that you try them before you start fithting them 🙂
I’m not going to argue about irony with a dimwit bleach drinker.
This “dimwit bleach drinker” managed to cure diseased that doctors weren’t able to cure for over 10 years… I wish there were more such “dimwit bleach drinker” :). I’ll drink MMS at least for as long as I can see and feel the profits 🙂
Hey, nobody cares if someone old enough and stupid enough wants to poison themselves. It’s when you start trying to poison kids that you become an evil bastard.
Well… I’m darwinian… and I agree with You, we shall let stupid people die… especially when the use ineffective medical treatment without trying to cure themselves on their own. I dropped conventional medicine and profited by taking MMS. I don’t want to convince anyone to use it (as I’m darwinian, I don’t care for fool ones). About poisoning kids… why why allow to poison them by vaccines? It’s senseless.
You’re a darwinian? What does that even mean? Also, it’s entirely your own failure to prioritise that you think profit is more important than proper health care, but that’s probably just a result of the same lack of brain cells that makes you think vaccines are poison.
Look for social darwinism. I said profit, as my helath profited by it the most… and my immune system. I know what is proper health care and I do it… and for sure proper helath care is not blind following doctor’s orders. They have almost ruined my health and my wallet.
Well, the good news is, it does seem to only be illiterate morons that fall for this crap, and you’re no exception, so humanity loses nothing for your stupidity.
Well… I’ve noticed that offending other people is domain of not very wise people. You’re doing it all the time… I don’t know what’s the point of it. You want to discredit me in such primitive way? It’s miserable. It’s a pity You call “stupid” a person who’s suffered serious deseased from his childhood and coped with it on his own. Just because he was not listening to guys like You, but his own brain.
And I have to dissapoint You, I suppose MMS prolonged (will prolong) my life… what a loss for humanity 🙂
In brief:
1. These are not my believes, I just state facts that I’ve personally experienced.
2. I’m not trying to sell anything. I do not work in that undustry.
3. I’m not stubborn, sorry, but I don’t feel like giving You examples.
4. I’m not self-absorbed and arrogant. That I don’t care for Your health doesn’t make me arrogant.
5. People that I know give MMS to their children (especially to skin problems) with very great effects.
6. If it’s been proven MMS is a poison over and over and over and over… why that has worked on my, on my family and some people that I know and their families? I doubt they all (and me) have lied to themselved that they are better now.
The observations of the “not very wise” suffering from a Dunning-Kruger issue are somewhat irrelevant, so if you’ve taken offence to a simple and demonstrable observation, then that is your problem. You could choose to try to learn something new, instead of basing your confused beliefs on hearsay and anecdotes, but you appear to be about as absorbent of knowledge of a brick wall, and just as communicable as one. I don’t need to discredit you, I don’t care about you. It’s the bullshit that you’re trying to sell that’s been discredited over and over and over and over and over… well, you get the idea. Your opinion means next to nothing next to the demonstrable, repeatable, and predictable models of science, so discrediting you is a waste of time, because you discredit yourself to any primate with a brain cell when you try to sell your nonsense. It’s clear, though, that the nuances of science escape you somewhat dramatically, otherwise this paranoid self-absorbed delusion of yours that you seem to be important enough to discredit is part of the argument. It’s not. Your information is what’s rubbish, and you’re simply a moron for peddling it.
In other words, I’m not saying, “you’re a moron therefore you’re wrong”, I’m saying, “you’re wrong and you won’t listen to anyone and stubbornly refuse to admit you’re wrong, therefore you’re a moron.” Whether it’s because you’ve been deceived as a layman with little understanding of how this stuff actually works, or because you actually do peddle this crap and profit from it, either way, you’re a moron. But, that’s not the problem. Nobody really cares about you, and being a moron doesn’t make you special.
Giving it to kids, though, would make you a criminal. Encroaching on the vulnerabilities of families in despair would make you less precious than the crap I pick from beneath my toes, and about as low as anyone can possibly go. Like I said initially, you want to poison yourself? Fine, go for it, but if you screw with the lives of children, the consequences be on you. Are you so certain of yourself, and what you know about the science, that you’re willing to risk the lives of children? Do you really think you know better than over a hundred years of science, education and research, the combined weight in man hours reaching into the millions, from hundreds and thousands of minds far greater than yours?
Are you really that self-absorbed and arrogant?
1. *Beliefs. If you can’t get basic literacy right, then I doubt you have the capacity to determine facts from personal experience. Such a small population sample of one is simply too restrictive, so anything you learn based on that alone is only subjective, not fact.
2. *industry. Again, some basic literacy is usually one of the first things you’ll need if you want to be taken seriously when you claim to know something and everyone else is but you is wrong. Also, I never said you did work in the industry, peddling crap, I said it was possible, and your word alone on the internet is not enough to convince me that it’s not still possible.
3. demonstrations are what make claims in science valid. You’ll need them if you want to make a point, and prove your claims.
4. You are and you are. The fact that you are is demonstrated by two things: first, that you know better than scientists that are demonstrably smarter than you (demonstrable by at least the fact that they are literate), and two, that you seem to think my point was discrediting you, when I don’t give a crap about you.
5. again, demonstrations are the hallmark of science. These crappy people you keep the company of – how many of them will submit their children in order to test the results? How are their observations, people who have such a limited understanding of science, even relevant, especially when the sample population is just their kids? How do you know the results they are seeing are what they think they are seeing? People die all the time without even knowing they were ill, or without anyone else noticing. Some people are saved when someone with expert experience notices that they were ill, when nobody else did. Also, anecdotes are really bad. I could tell you I know a man who grew a third leg after eating a granny smith apple. It’s just an anecdote, and when you realise why you don’t have to believe mine, you’ll also know why I have no reason to believe yours. It’s like that stupid “I’m not racist because I have black friends” excuse. And it means nothing next to the scientific data gathered for real medicine on much larger population samples than I think your tiny mind could actually grapple with.
6. Cocaine works as a cold remedy. Why don’t people use it for that I wonder? If it works, then why should we prevent it? Go figure, huh. I guess we can’t all be geniuses who know everything like you are, though.
1. Ive read much about chlorine dioxide and MMS. It was basic literacy. But it’s of little meaning now. Facts are things that actually hapenned, believes are things You think happened or might happen. I stated facts. I don’t need tests on group of bilion people to convince myself that MMS is working. It works on me pretty great. I use it in many ways.
2. I never said everyone but me is wrong, I’ve ever suggested such a stupid thing and I won’t. But according to literacy, try looking for sth like this “Controlled Clinical Evaluations of Chlorine Dioxide, Chlorite and Chlorate in Man”. It seems serious.
3-5. My intention was not to prove any scientific claims. Just to share my personal experiences with MMS. You’ve taken me wrong.
6. According to drugs… I wouldn’t ban them at all. People shall decide for themselves if they want it or not. And for the same reason people shall be able to choose their if they wanna fight cold with cocaine, vitamin c, antibiotics, prayer, etc.
1. You’re right, reading is basic literacy, but the material you read is called ‘literature’. You may be capable of reading, but your basic presentation of literacy is poor, at best. For example, *happened, *beliefs, the list goes on. You might be happy to settle for believing what you think you’re seeing, but people think they see UFOs all the time, and they turn out to be airplanes instead. Children think they see monsters in their room, which turn out to be nothing but the shadows of their curtains. Your perception, as a non-scientist, is limited to what you think you see, and you cannot see beyond it. That’s not the worst part, though. The worst part is, you refuse to even try. I’m sorry, but scientists with a broader perspective than you know more than you, regardless of what you think you’ve seen.
2-5. no, you are wrong, and you are trying to argue that you are right, in the face of extraordinarily overwhelming evidence presented on this very page. In any case, so long as you understand that your personal experience does not tip the scales of evidence even one iota, then you’ll understand why science considers your personal experience to be completely irrelevant. I haven’t taken you wrong at all. You’ve made an assertion that in your personal experience, it works. That may be so, but your personal experience is limited, and non-scientific, so in your personal experience alone, you are also dead wrong.
6. No, I’m sorry, my tax dollars are not going towards deadbeats who want to self-medicate any way they choose if it includes quack therapies, downright dangerous medications or treatments, or illegal drugs. If people want to do that, and they’re doing it entirely out of their own pocket, then power to them, why should I care? If they do it to other people, then they are criminals that should be locked away as permanently as the law allows.
Well… for sure I made spelling errors. I’m not native speaker of english and I’m doing many task simultaneously, thus I don’t check my posts for errors.
But You still discredit me, not the MMS. I thouht discussion here was about the MMS. You still insinuate that what MMS do is just belief. Unfortunately it’s not beliefe.
PS. I’ve just noticed this page advises vaccinations, etc… tough oO
Nice weasel words, but I don’t need to discredit MMS, because it hasn’t been proven to be safe and effective to begin with. Not in practice, not in a lab, and not on paper. And what you think you’re seeing is no measure of fact, but what can be demonstrated and modelled on the other hand, like vaccination, is a very good measure of fact. Far better than your anecdotes and beliefs. And yes, I’m afraid it is just a belief based on your own personal experience, not a fact based on demonstrable evidence.
Well… I’ve been treating with tested and patented medical drugs for over a decade… And they did their job, they took much of my money. After that period I tried something that thank god is not patented and will never be. It’s not thoroughly tested in medical trials. It’s not problem for me. I had time to read about it, then to try it and then to experiment on my own. I was cautious about it. The result speaks for itself… and result is my general health improvement. I’m afraid that if MMS has gone through all that medical trials I’d be expensive and what’s worse sold by one producer. Now it’s pretty cheap, furthermore You can do it on Your own 🙂
@truther
“But according to literacy, try looking for sth like this “Controlled Clinical Evaluations of Chlorine Dioxide, Chlorite and Chlorate in Man”. It seems serious.”
Just so you know, this particular study you give as proof that drinking chlorine dioxide is safe does not apply. First of all the subjects in the study were all healthy large men, NOT tiny fragile young children! Secondly, the amount of chlorine dioxide given to the subjects was much, much lower than the amounts Jim Humble and his proponents say to drink it at. Afterall, the purpose of the study was to test the safety of chlorine dioxide at the tiny amounts that it is used to purify water.
Chlorine dioxide has NEVER been tested systemically on humans to treat disease internally.
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Kerri is busy person, helping. Apparently you are not so engaged, or you would not find the time to go on and on as you have. The response she gave you was concise and would have given you pause to think if you were serious. You likely have no problem with kids swimming and drinking in bleached pools that make my eyes water to stand in the same room.
Furthermore, frankly, if a kid has worms and is in danger of putting his eyes out by digging at them for relief then he needs deworming. Apparently you have not managed to get that far in your logic to even recognize that problem. Thank you Kerri for bringing the seriousness of this problem to our attention.
Welcome to the real world outside of your job, “supposedly autismum”. Time to catch up.
I’m not engaged in the abuse of children. You’re quite right. And please do explain how worms in the eyes are cured by bleach up the arse?
“supposedly autismum”? you are a paranoid little poppet!
I find it very funny to read these comments from both sides, the MMS side and the anti-bleach side. Both sides seem to be very “knowitall” when it comes to this matter.
I’m a chemist, biochemist to be precise, so I know a few things more about chemistry and biochemical processes than most of the people here on the forum.
The bleach or non-bleach discussion is actually irrelevant. It seems the only reason the word bleach is used on here is because people associate bleach with with sodium hypochlorite thus making it look worse that it actually is.
Technically what is called “MMS” is also a strong oxidizer and as such can be considered bleach as bleaching in this case is based on the oxidation process that takes place. So calling it bleach is technically correct I suppose, as it is used e.g. to bleach wood pulp.
But it’s not because hypochlorite is a bleaching agent and dangerous to drink that automatically anything that has a bleaching effect is similar.
Methanol and Ethyl Alcohol (known as alcohol) are very similar they only differ in that Ethyl Alcohol has two CH3 groups while Methyl Alcohol (Methanol) only has one CH3 group. When ingested the effects are quite different, one gives you a hangover the other can turn you blind. Even if a chemical molecule differs in just one atom the effects to our health can be very different.
So equating chlorine dioxide to hypochlorite is equally stupid in attempt to discredit chlorine dioxide. Calling it bleach is not helping either as it does not contribute anything of value to the discussion.
The idea that science and scientific research are infallible is also stupid as it has been proven over and over during the last couple of decades. I still remember the time that doctors, yes doctors used to smoke in front of you, now we consider this crazy but there were times we saw smoking as something innocent. Think of homosexuality how this was considered (and still is by some people) a mental disease and now many countries allow same sex marriages. Asbestos is another example but there are many others including medication that was considered safe based on double blind trials and yet are now forbidden because of dangerous side effects (or maybe more because the patent has expired and to prevent cheap generics from being produced).
Science is evolving and ideas and opinions are corrected throughout history. I’m not advocating MMS as I know little about it’s effects both on short or long term when ingested but arrogantly bashing “MMS believers” with evidence that is equally questionable is not helping anyone.
An active ingredient of Coca Cola is phosphoric acid, that can actually be used to remove stains or to remove rust. We once in the lab checked it’s PH level and it was around PH 2, very acidic. Combine that with loads of sugar most likely high fructose corn syrup as that is used everywhere nowadays as cheaper alternative to classic sugar. And we drink that worldwide on daily basis. Maybe check the krebs cycle for the metabolic process needed to digest fructose corn syrup. Too much fructose is converted by the liver and stored as fat. In the presence of excessive Acetyl-CoA, liver metabolism gears in the direction of fat synthesis. Yet the “science” from the diet industry convinced us to use diet products with high fructose and low fat content. Food Companies are employing biochemists like me for research to show how great their products are, I worked in that industry and I witnessed myself how this scientific research is done. Without going into detail it was enough for me to quit working in that industry.
That just to show that science can be used to serve any purpose and that it helps to do your own research instead of parroting “scientific” studies or seeing science as the new religion.
I’m not taking any sides in the MMS debate I just wanted to point out that science and scientific studies should equally be looked at with a grain of salt because in 10 years from now a lot of things we consider ok today will be considered irresponsible tomorrow and vice versa.
All I know is that chlorine dioxide when used outside of the body is very effective in killing microorganisms and that it is actually used in the food industry for cleaning purposes but also for treating food. So you are likely to eat stuff that has been treated with it.
It’s considered as very safe and highly effective compared to alternative disinfectants, just read about it in the articles.
I can’t comment on the safety when used internally but as with anything the danger depends mostly on concentration in which it is used. As pointed out table salt in large quantities is also deadly, drinking more than 6 liters in one go is likely to kill you.
http://www.clearwater.eu.com/chlorine_dioxide/chlorine_dioxide_within_the_food_and_beverage_industry.html
http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/magazine-archive1/februarymarch-2005/food-safety-insider-sanitation-solutions/10-reasons-why-you-should-be-using-chlorine-dioxide/
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iafp/jfp/2005/00000068/00000006/art00007
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0740002002904934
“So equating chlorine dioxide to hypochlorite is equally stupid in attempt to discredit chlorine dioxide.”
No one has
Nik Said “What people choose to do with their own bodies or their children’s is their own business.”
Really? children are the property of their parents?
Close down Child protective services all around the world, it’s official, parents can do whatever they chose to their children including violating their rectum.
I drop a comment when I like a post on a site or
I have something to add to the conversation.
It’s caused by the fire displayed in the article I browsed.
And after this article MMS for Autism – a Reply | Autismum.
I was actually moved enough to post a comment 🙂 I actually do have a couple of questions for you if it’s allright.
Is it only me or do some of the comments come across as if they are
written by brain dead folks? 😛 And, if you are writing on additional places, I would like to follow you.
Could you make a list all of your community pages like your Facebook page, twitter feed, or linkedin profile?
*AutismOne shill hat on* Autismum, you have to admit that MMS actually works to cure Autism. *AutismOne shill hat off* After all, a dead child is no longer Autistic, are they?
Petition Closed per Aug 6, 2014…
I will use MMS for myself. I wont die with autism. Because then autism would have won.
Theres alot of contreversy about chlorine dioxide but i literally bought it at my local outdoorsy camping store (MEC in Canada). It was sold in the water purification section as sodium chlorite and phosphoric acid that you’d mix together exactly as you would mms. Same concentrations and everything- AND the directions suggested much higher doses than kerri rivera does.. Thats what made me feel safe about trying the cd for my joint pain and eczema. I suggest anyone feelin open minded check out their local camping gear store, that might put you at ease!
Hate to awaken a dead thread, but this stuff is still poisoning people (and curing Ebola!) See here:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/miracle-cure-exposed-as-bleach/story-fni0fit3-1227167463855?nk=6453a83c4434ff143fe74035fbf82adb